Discussion Cannonball comparisons, and the broadside strengths of all hulls

Sky Kiwi

Pirate Master
If you don't care about the science behind it all, just go to the bottom. The words/numbers in RED are the important ones. You might also want to read the "General Notes" section at the bottom.

Hi there! You probably know me as "that one guy who filled a few threads with a whole lot of math". Well I'm here to put it in its own thread now.

Disclaimer: I haven't fully tested SvS yet. All this is PvE.

The first thing you need to know is how cannonball damage works. This is important because it means all the end result numbers can be in terms of percent average damage relative to an ordinary broadside. Even against all enemy ships, at all times, these damage ratios remain persistent. Hunters receive 8% less damage and Warships receive 24% less damage. This was tested at notoriety 42, and max sailing/cannon level. These percentages go down at higher levels, which I have just confirmed (but still working on details), but the important part remains: the percentage is consistent across different ammo types. Additionally, ships with armour remaining take 50% less damage when hit on that side. Again, this number is persistent.

Why does that matter so much? Well, let's take for example round shot vs fury shot. Fury is known to be exactly twice as strong as Round Shot. The importance of what I said above is that it doesn't matter if you shoot a Navy Ferret with no armour, or a Battle Royale with full armour - Fury still does twice as much damage.

With that said, the next step is knowing your damage values. You may have seen this thread where I went very overboard on obtaining various numbers and explaining my math. If you want to delve deeper into what happens next, read through the conversations that happened there.

I obtained my damage values through a thoroughly controlled method. I would fire each of my three relevant shots (in this case round, thunder and explosive) against the same type of ship while armoured, then again while not armoured. I repeated this process for hunters, and then warships. Once I had determined how it all correlates together, I no longer had to test the same ammo types against three different ships, I merely had to compare against round shot to the other ammunition types against any particular ship. As said before, for examples of numbers and a higher detail explanation, see the thread linked above. For ammo types I don't have, I recruited some helpful forum members to provide me with their exact damage values for me to do my math with (thanks @WilyJaymes and @DR1F73R).

All the cannonball types (that are relevant to us) have clean multiple values of round shot's damage. So for the purpose of everything in this thread, we are going to use the relative damage to round shots. In other words, the values below show "how many round shots it takes to do the same amount of damage." These are the values found below:

Ammo Type Damage Amount:
  • Round Shot: 1 (duh)
  • Firebrand: 1.25
  • Thunderbolt: 3
  • Explosive: 12
  • Fury: 2

Using these numbers in this format makes it very easy to compare special hull broadsides average damage values. The way to do this is simple. You multiply each cannonball's damage value by the chance of them obtaining it, and add them together. For example, on a Storm Chaser IV, you would use ((1 * 0.85) + (3 * 0.15)). For a regular broadside, it would be (1 * 1), which is obviously just 1. So remember, 1 is 100%. This allows us to obtain the average broadside damage values for each hull type.
  • Copperhead
    • IV: (1 * 0.95) + (12 * 0.05) = 1.55 = 155%
    • V: (1 * 0.90) + (12 * 0.10) = 2.10 = 210%
    • VI: (1 * 0.85) + (12 * 0.15) = 2.65 = 265%
    • Additional Notes: Copperhead has the highest average damage per broadside, however because of the nature of its low percentage but high hitting ammo it can vary wildly. Some broadsides will have absolutely no explosives, resulting in a meager 100%, while others might have an extra one or two in there, going as high as 400%. So Copperhead is commonly known as a high risk, high reward broadside ship. Additionally, when your broadsides do not lock on, the heavier weight of explosive ammo gives them less range.
  • Skull and Bones
    • IV: (1 * 0.85) + (2 * 0.15) = 1.15 = 115%
    • V: (1 * 0.67) + (2 * 0.33) = 1.33 = 133%
    • VI: (1 * 0.50) + (2 * 0.50) = 1.50 = 150%
  • Fortune Hunter
    • IV: (1 * 0.85) + (1.25 * 0.15) = 1.0375 = 103.75%
    • V: (1 * 0.70) + (1.25 * 0.30) = 1.075 = 107.5%
    • VI: (1 * 0.55) + (1.25 * 0.45) = 1.1125 = 112.25%
  • Firestorm
    • IV: (1 * 0.80) + (1.25 * 0.20) = 1.05 = 105%
    • V: (1 * 0.60) + (1.25 * 0.40) = 1.10 = 110%
    • VI: (1 * 0.40) + (1.25 * 0.60) = 1.15 = 115%
  • Storm Chaser
    • IV: (1 * 0.85) + (3 * 0.15) = 1.30 = 130%
    • V: (1 * 0.70) + (3 * 0.30) = 1.60 = 160%
    • VI: (1 * 0.55) + (3 * 0.45) = 1.90 = 190%
    • Additional Notes: When your broadsides do not lock on, thunderbolt ammo's lighter weight makes the shots travel significantly further.
General notes:
  • Ammo range/speed does not matter if your broadsides lock on - all shots will travel at the same arc and speed.
  • Firebrand burning effect is not working at this time, and when it does it does not stack. However, because of this, the firebrand's base damage is increased. In POTCO, firebrand actually did less base damage than round shot, making the firebrand hulls have lower average damage than regular boardsides!
  • All skill points up to 5 increase every ammo type by the same percentage. The values above are true only if your round shot and special shot skills are the same skill level, otherwise you will see variance.
  • Barrage does affect broadside damage, but equally across all ammo types (in percentage), therefore not changing the results of these equations.
  • The broadside skills from sailing increase all ammo types equally in percentage, therefore not changing any of the values shown above.
  • No matter what hull you're on, a good crew will always be your main damage output. Some of these numbers may seem very extreme, but your broadsides will never be as powerful as a deck of strong gunners. A lucky Copperhead with a poor crew will not out-damage a Fortune Hunter with a strong crew.
  • The formula for enemy Hunter/Warship damage taken multiplier is 1 - ((EnemyLevel - (PlayerNotorietyLevel + 5)) * 0.02). In layman terms, this means "For every level the enemy is above (your notoriety level + 5), the enemy takes 2% less damage". This means for a Notoriety 50 pirate, Warships (level 59-61) take 8-12% less damage. At Notr30 they take 52% less damage! However, this damage reduction applies equally across all ammo types. I am unsure if normal ships follow this rule.

On a side note, I have a buff suggestion for firebrand (and therefore fortune hunter and firestorm hulls) coming soon, with an additional firestorm buff on top of that. I also think Skull and Bones could use a bit of a buff.
 
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Firebrand and fury need a little bit of a rework. They're fine as cannon skills, but as broadsides, fall behind other hull types.
They are lackluster as broadsides, but I think that could be fixed with a percentage change for fury. Skull and Bones could simply have increased fury chance to bring it up to par. Firebrand, however, unless changed will always be weak for broadsides.
 
Update: Added hunter/warship damage reduction formula at the bottom of the page. Would be cool if someone could test whether it applies to normal ships too (if you're a low level and your cannonball does more damage to a ferret than it does to a Colossus, that would mean yes it does).

  • The formula for enemy Hunter/Warship damage reduction is 1 - ((EnemyLevel - (PlayerNotorietyLevel + 5)) * 0.02). In layman terms, this means "For every level the enemy is above (your notoriety level + 5), the enemy takes 2% less damage". This means for a Notoriety 50 pirate, Warships (level 59-61) take 8-12% less damage. At Notr30 they take 52% less damage! However, this damage reduction applies equally across all ammo types. I am unsure if normal ships follow this rule.
 
If you don't care about the science behind it all, just go to the bottom. The words/numbers in RED are the important ones. You might also want to read the "General Notes" section at the bottom.

Hi there! You probably know me as "that one guy who filled a few threads with a whole lot of math". Well I'm here to put it in its own thread now.

Disclaimer: I haven't fully tested SvS yet. All this is PvE.

The first thing you need to know is how cannonball damage works. This is important because it means all the end result numbers can be in terms of percent average damage relative to an ordinary broadside. Even against all enemy ships, at all times, these damage ratios remain persistent. Hunters receive 8% less damage and Warships receive 24% less damage. This was tested at notoriety 42, and max sailing/cannon level. These percentages go down at higher levels, which I have just confirmed (but still working on details), but the important part remains: the percentage is consistent across different ammo types. Additionally, ships with armour remaining take 50% less damage when hit on that side. Again, this number is persistent.

Why does that matter so much? Well, let's take for example round shot vs fury shot. Fury is known to be exactly twice as strong as Round Shot. The importance of what I said above is that it doesn't matter if you shoot a Navy Ferret with no armour, or a Battle Royale with full armour - Fury still does twice as much damage.

With that said, the next step is knowing your damage values. You may have seen this thread where I went very overboard on obtaining various numbers and explaining my math. If you want to delve deeper into what happens next, read through the conversations that happened there.

I obtained my damage values through a thoroughly controlled method. I would fire each of my three relevant shots (in this case round, thunder and explosive) against the same type of ship while armoured, then again while not armoured. I repeated this process for hunters, and then warships. Once I had determined how it all correlates together, I no longer had to test the same ammo types against three different ships, I merely had to compare against round shot to the other ammunition types against any particular ship. As said before, for examples of numbers and a higher detail explanation, see the thread linked above. For ammo types I don't have, I recruited some helpful forum members to provide me with their exact damage values for me to do my math with (thanks @WilyJaymes and @DR1F73R).

All the cannonball types (that are relevant to us) have clean multiple values of round shot's damage. So for the purpose of everything in this thread, we are going to use the relative damage to round shots. In other words, the values below show "how many round shots it takes to do the same amount of damage." These are the values found below:

Ammo Type Damage Amount:
  • Round Shot: 1 (duh)
  • Firebrand: 1.25
  • Thunderbolt: 3
  • Explosive: 12
  • Fury: 2

Using these numbers in this format makes it very easy to compare special hull broadsides average damage values. The way to do this is simple. You multiply each cannonball's damage value by the chance of them obtaining it, and add them together. For example, on a Storm Chaser IV, you would use ((1 * 0.85) + (3 * 0.15)). For a regular broadside, it would be (1 * 1), which is obviously just 1. So remember, 1 is 100%. This allows us to obtain the average broadside damage values for each hull type.
  • Copperhead
    • IV: (1 * 0.95) + (12 * 0.05) = 1.55 = 155%
    • V: (1 * 0.90) + (12 * 0.10) = 2.10 = 210%
    • VI: (1 * 0.85) + (12 * 0.15) = 2.65 = 265%
    • Additional Notes: Copperhead has the highest average damage per broadside, however because of the nature of its low percentage but high hitting ammo it can vary wildly. Some broadsides will have absolutely no explosives, resulting in a meager 100%, while others might have an extra one or two in there, going as high as 400%. So Copperhead is commonly known as a high risk, high reward broadside ship. Additionally, when your broadsides do not lock on, the heavier weight of explosive ammo gives them less range.
  • Skull and Bones
    • IV: (1 * 0.85) + (2 * 0.15) = 1.15 = 115%
    • V: (1 * 0.67) + (2 * 0.33) = 1.33 = 133%
    • VI: (1 * 0.50) + (2 * 0.50) = 1.50 = 150%
  • Fortune Hunter
    • IV: (1 * 0.85) + (1.25 * 0.15) = 1.0375 = 103.75%
    • V: (1 * 0.70) + (1.25 * 0.30) = 1.075 = 107.5%
    • VI: (1 * 0.55) + (1.25 * 0.45) = 1.1125 = 112.25%
  • Firestorm
    • IV: (1 * 0.80) + (1.25 * 0.20) = 1.05 = 105%
    • V: (1 * 0.60) + (1.25 * 0.40) = 1.10 = 110%
    • VI: (1 * 0.40) + (1.25 * 0.60) = 1.15 = 115%
  • Storm Chaser
    • IV: (1 * 0.85) + (3 * 0.15) = 1.30 = 130%
    • V: (1 * 0.70) + (3 * 0.30) = 1.60 = 160%
    • VI: (1 * 0.55) + (3 * 0.45) = 1.90 = 190%
    • Additional Notes: When your broadsides do not lock on, thunderbolt ammo's lighter weight makes the shots travel significantly further.
General notes:
  • Ammo range/speed does not matter if your broadsides lock on - all shots will travel at the same arc and speed.
  • Firebrand burning effect is not working at this time, and when it does it does not stack. However, because of this, the firebrand's base damage is increased. In POTCO, firebrand actually did less base damage than round shot, making the firebrand hulls have lower average damage than regular boardsides!
  • All skill points up to 5 increase every ammo type by the same percentage. The values above are true only if your round shot and special shot skills are the same skill level, otherwise you will see variance.
  • Barrage does affect broadside damage, but equally across all ammo types (in percentage).
  • The broadside skills from sailing increase all ammo types equally in percentage, therefore not changing any of the values shown above.
  • No matter what hull you're on, a good crew will always be your main damage output. Some of these numbers may seem very extreme, but your Broadsides will never be as powerful as a deck of strong gunners.
  • The formula for enemy Hunter/Warship damage reduction is 1 - ((EnemyLevel - (PlayerNotorietyLevel + 5)) * 0.02). In layman terms, this means "For every level the enemy is above (your notoriety level + 5), the enemy takes 2% less damage". This means for a Notoriety 50 pirate, Warships (level 59-61) take 8-12% less damage. At Notr30 they take 52% less damage! However, this damage reduction applies equally across all ammo types. I am unsure if normal ships follow this rule.

On a side note, I have a buff suggestion for firebrand (and therefore fortune hunter and firestorm hulls) coming soon, with an additional firestorm buff on top of that. I also think Skull and Bones could use a bit of a buff.

Thank you for all the great information and calculations !
If possible i'd like to request some more calculations with cannon rams, allthough they do not work right now I think it's still important to see how much the difference will be. Some cannon rams bring Critical Rate to the tale making it a bit hard for me math noob to solve
the cannon rams i'm thinking about:
Cajun Cannon Ram Critical Firebrand 3, Firebrand +3
Steel Cannon Ram Critical Round Shot 3, Round Shot +3
Haunted Cannon Ram Critical Fury, Fury +1
Phantom Cannon Ram Infinite Thunderbolt, Thunderbolt +1
Iron Priming Ram Extra Explosive Range 2, Explosive +2
With Iron Priming it seems like Copperhead will dominate even more than it does right now, and since there's no real good thunder cannon ram it seems like Storm Chaser will be more or less equal to fury ?

which further shows there needs to be something done about the balance
 
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Thank you for all the great information and calculations !
If possible i'd like to request some more calculations with cannon rams, allthough they do not work right now I think it's still important to see how much the difference will be. Some cannon rams bring Critical Rate to the tale making it a bit hard for me math noob to solve
the cannon rams i'm thinking about:
Cajun Cannon Ram Critical Firebrand 3, Firebrand +3
Steel Cannon Ram Critical Round Shot 3, Round Shot +3
Haunted Cannon Ram Critical Fury, Fury +1
Phantom Cannon Ram Infinite Thunderbolt, Thunderbolt +1
Iron Priming Ram Extra Explosive Range 2, Explosive +2
With Iron Priming it seems like Copperhead will dominate even more than it does right now, and since there's no real good thunder cannon ram it seems like Storm Chaser will be more or less equal to fury ?
I'm unsure on the damage increases of the levels above 5. For some skills it is reduced (see Treasure Sense reducing from 5% per level to 2-3%) after 5, and I'm thinking similar results might happen with damage values (normally a level would increase damage by 25%, but above 5 it could be more or less than that). Additionally I have heard people say that different cannonballs have different increases per level - for example if fury gained 12.5% per level but thunderbolt gained 20% (these are not real numbers! Just examples!). So until we can actually get our hands on some actual numbers I'm not going to be able to figure out any accurate stuff there.

And to boot, I don't actually know what the critical chance is for each critical rank - and additionally, whether it's different for cannonball criticals compared to land combat criticals.

Make no mistake though, when sea items work again, figuring out how cannon rams play into these values is absolutely part of my plan.
 
I love this, one think I didn't ever take note of was cannonballs being effected by their natural range when not locked on. If that's true, then lightning shot broadsides could be really good for long range shotgunning.

edit: Also thank-you so much for the calculations on damage reduction based on level! Back in old potco, I was working on a 'cannon pure' which would just be an anomaly that would confuse players. "How is this level 20 hitting so hard on these warships?!" They'd ask in my head.

Of course, looking back on it I realized that my damage would probably be a lot lower than a level 50 with the same skills based on level. And now this confirms in with numbers! Thanks!
 
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I love this, one think I didn't ever take note of was cannonballs being effected by their natural range when not locked on. If that's true, then lightning shot broadsides could be really good for long range shotgunning.

edit: Also thank-you so much for the calculations on damage reduction based on level! Back in old potco, I was working on a 'cannon pure' which would just be an anomaly that would confuse players. "How is this level 20 hitting so hard on these warships?!" They'd ask in my head.

Of course, looking back on it I realized that my damage would probably be a lot lower than a level 50 with the same skills based on level. And now this confirms in with numbers! Thanks!
Yeah the lightning shotgun is pretty cool for cluster sailing. I've done it before on my War Sloop, it made tagging a bunch of random ships quite fun really.

War Brigs have the furthest "shotgun range" of any ship, so I've wondered how great the lightning shotguns would be on those.

And yeah, the reduction kinda ruins the potential for pures. I'm not sure if there's similar mechanics for land combat, but I'm sure there is. I remember back in POTCO my level 30 sword was nowhere near as strong as other peoples' level 30 swords, even while I was rocking the Lost Sword (which I got from the game-ending redeem code, I've still never acquired a legendary normally...)
 
Oh yeah, there's a mechanic like that in place on land enemies too. That one was more obvious to me because it's your pirate physically fighting an enemy. I have a level 20 pirate with maxed gun who can't hit over 100 on Darkhart with a fully charged silver shot from a famed musket hehe.

Makes less since with ships because you're just firing a cannon at them, if No-Arm-Jimmy fires a cannonball at the waterline of a ship, it'll do the same damage as the Master-Marksman-Flavius who hits the same spot. I guess you could use that same logic for the gun, but with the gun you just aim in a general area near the enemy so I can attribute it to my pirate being inaccurate with his shots. The cannon though, you aim at specific parts of ships.

Oh well, the rule here is don't look for logic in a mechanic meant to balance a game. Just be thankful it's there.
 
Hey,

Excellent thread here. I like this kind of stuff so I went out and grabbed some numbers for myself just to satisfy my curiosity.

I get the same results you did for thunderbolt and explosive (worth 3 and 12 round shot, respectively), and I don't have firebrand. However, I'm getting consistently different results for fury. It's worth mentioning that on this pirate both round shot and fury are maxed. Here's what I got:

Vengeance, armored
Round: 378
Fury: 680

Vengeance, unarmored
Round: 756
Fury: 1360

En garde, armored
Round: 340
Fury: 612

En garde, unarmored
Round: 680
Fury: 1224

In each case, fury comes out to be worth 1.80 round shot instead of 2. Any thoughts on this discrepancy?

Finally, if my results are accurate, it means that skull and bones is even less powerful than we thought:
IV: (1*0.85)+(1.8*0.15)=112%
V: (1*0.67)+(1.8*0.33)=126.4%
VI: (1*0.50)+(1.8*0.50)=140%
 
What skill?
I believe he is referring to demolitions mistakenly. Demolitions grenade skill increase the AoE of grenades and cannonballs, for back when cannonballs could do damage to the crew on enemy ships. That feature was long removed from the game back in POTCO so it doesn't actually effect cannon anymore. There are no cannon damage increasing grenade skills.
 
I'm unsure on the damage increases of the levels above 5. For some skills it is reduced (see Treasure Sense reducing from 5% per level to 2-3%) after 5, and I'm thinking similar results might happen with damage values (normally a level would increase damage by 25%, but above 5 it could be more or less than that). Additionally I have heard people say that different cannonballs have different increases per level - for example if fury gained 12.5% per level but thunderbolt gained 20% (these are not real numbers! Just examples!). So until we can actually get our hands on some actual numbers I'm not going to be able to figure out any accurate stuff there.

And to boot, I don't actually know what the critical chance is for each critical rank - and additionally, whether it's different for cannonball criticals compared to land combat criticals.

Make no mistake though, when sea items work again, figuring out how cannon rams play into these values is absolutely part of my plan.
do you still play ? can this get revisited since rams are out now? :)
 
do you still play ? can this get revisited since rams are out now? :)
I made a guide recently with a bit less overall info than Sky Kiwi here but it has details on what the best rams are for each type of ship broadside using a similar mathematical approach. The only difference is that I found fury to be doing 1.8 times the damage of round shot rather than 2 as was found in this post.
 
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