Ethics of Emulation (that 'old' debate)

[Shamus The Brute]

Really good article below. I recommend it as worth your time reading. (While although it pertains to 'console emulation' the article itself touches upon the issue itself as a whole and as such, perhaps our ex-POTCO community might be able to learn or take something from it):

• http://www.pcgamer.com/the-ethics-o...community-and-the-law-view-console-emulators/

On the forums here, we have had great debates in the past on such topic-of-discussion. If you are interested, participate in the above ^ POLL as well so perhaps a sense of engagement could better be gauged. Thank ye.

 

[Darkslinger]

Emulation is controversial when developers are losing money as a result of it. I believe that TLOPO and similar projects aren't in the same boat.

They're not using Disney's IP for profit or any malicious intent. I believe it would only be unethical if POTCO had already existed and other developers started creating free-to-play servers ( this would have affected their sales/profits). The projects are harmless (reviving a dead game) and will not affect Disney in any way, shape or form, Disney wouldn't be making any money from POTCO with or without the remakes so I personally believe that it's completely legal.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

Emulation is controversial when developers are losing money as a result of it. I believe that TLOPO and similar projects aren't in the same boat. They're not using Disney's IP

Understood. However...

1. Did you even read the article before trying to post to this thread?
2. POTCO's code is Disney's IP (or intellectual property). It's intellectual property because it is of what POTCO was/remains.

 

[Darkslinger]

Understood. However...

1. Did you even read the article before trying to post to this thread?
2. POTCO's code is Disney's IP (or intellectual property). It's intellectual property because it is of what POTCO was/remains

I accidentally clicked post reply before finishing my reply, no delete option so sorry!

 

[Shamus The Brute]

I accidentally clicked post reply before finishing my reply, no delete option so sorry!

No worries. I appreciate your response back.

EDIT: This thread isn't to debate about POTCO being remade via TLOPO. It's only to discuss matters pertinent to the article itself and what the article has mentioned. The poll is to gauge whether further discussion could be initiated in lieu of POTCO being remade. (If it's too controversial of a topic for this forums, allow the poll then to speak for itself. Thank ye).

 

[Johnny Telltale]

Spoiler: Emulator Definition

In computing, an emulator is hardware or software that enables one computer system (called the host) to behave like another computer system (called the guest). An emulator typically enables the host system to run software or use peripheral devices designed for the guest system. Emulation refers to the ability of a computer program in an electronic device to emulate (or imitate) another program or device. Many printers, for example, are designed to emulate Hewlett-Packard LaserJet printers because so much software is written for HP printers. If a non-HP printer emulates an HP printer, any software written for a real HP printer will also run in the non-HP printer emulation and produce equivalent printing.

As you can see from the above, an emulator is a computer simulating another computer system. TLOPO is NOT an emulator.

A good example of this is a PC emulating a gamecube game. THAT would be an emulator, this is just a remake of an old game. There is a massive, massive, difference.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

Spoiler: Emulator Definition

In computing, an emulator is hardware or software that enables one computer system (called the host) to behave like another computer system (called the guest). An emulator typically enables the host system to run software or use peripheral devices designed for the guest system. Emulation refers to the ability of a computer program in an electronic device to emulate (or imitate) another program or device. Many printers, for example, are designed to emulate Hewlett-Packard LaserJet printers because so much software is written for HP printers. If a non-HP printer emulates an HP printer, any software written for a real HP printer will also run in the non-HP printer emulation and produce equivalent printing.

As you can see from the above, an emulator is a computer simulating another computer system. TLOPO is NOT an emulator.

A good example of this is a PC emulating a gamecube game. THAT would be an emulator, this is just a remake of an old game. There is a massive, massive, difference.

Don't you think that is a tad "off-topic," @Johnny Telltale?

What was written within this thread which lead you to want to make such a distinction?

 

[Rich Fireskull]

As the original post stated that this was for the topic of console emulation pertaining to a specific article, I have always been one for emulation. It is true that if someone is going to make an emulator, it needs to be made as soon as possible. There are reasons why we still don't have viable Original Xbox or Sega Saturn emulators. Not enough interest was found and the projects started too late.

When I emulate something, I generally stick to older consoles like NES, SNES, Genesis, or sometimes N64 if the game can be emulated properly. The reason why, is that those consoles no longer provide any immediate profit or income for the companies in question. That, and I also tend to grab games that I already own a physical copy of.

As for the Dolphin emulator that I am so fond of, I started at first with Gamecube games that I physically owned. I actually bought a special drive off eBay for around $14 just so I could backup my own game disks. I then did that to a few of my Wii games. After a while, the Gamecube had long been discontinued and the Wii had just stopped selling in stores.

Emulation, while it can enable piracy, is more to preserve a game and the joy that it provided. Most emulator authors, in fact, do not condone piracy and give you the instructions to get what you need from your console (such as a bios in the case of a PS2 emulator), rather than illegally downloading the file.

I quite enjoyed reading this article. Maybe a typo or two but beyond that, it was well written and didn't pick sides. It sought to understand and explain so that viewers might understand the situation more.

On a slight side note, does anyone know how hard it is to find a copy of the Genesis game "Zero Wing"? lol. Some things are better off emulated.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

...Emulation, while it can enable piracy, is more to preserve a game and the joy that it provided. Most emulator authors, in fact, do not condone piracy and give you the instructions to get what you need from your console (such as a bios in the case of a PS2 emulator), rather than illegally downloading the file.

And it is that preservation point to where, I think does tug on everyone's hearts. I certainly can understand that. Also, I sympathize somewhat towards the need in doing so. The parts of me which don't, I will explain a little further below.

While good things enter and then later good things exit our lives, I don't particularly feel it is always healthy for us to hang onto something within the past only to continue to enjoy it. I'll take that golden snack, the TWINKIE, as an example.

I'm not even sure when but approximately 5 years or so years ago, the all nutritious health food - the TWINKIE - was taken off store shelves. As I recall, the company which owned the snack brand ('Hostess,' I think) experienced financial woes because the company itself had hesitated too long to enter the no-carb or some other health trend which had evolved readily here within the US. As such, the company was forced to take a loss and one of the products which they had decide to end was the fluffy, golden (hand-size) cake with the tasty cream-filling inside. Millions of Americans, including myself, cried non-stop for like a week. (jk). Anyway, the TWINKIE had somehow made a come-back and so all is well but the question also needs to be asked if the golden delight's return would ultimately still be healthy for everyone's...well, future health.

*Dinosaurs could be another example if their pre-historic DNA could successfully be reverse-engineered. (Now whom 'wouldn't want their own pet Pterodactyl flying around instead of those pesky drones)? The point is, part of adapting and changing to what LIFE gives us is accepting a thing's own time and a thing's own end. It's more along the lines of human beings learning to accept closure rather than not. And so, I guess that is the part of me which more or less doesn't see the point in wanting to preserve the life of certain things because ultimately for me...it comes down to "respecting" what that thing was regardless of the limited time it was offered. Anyway, I have a lot more to say but I will pause at this point.

 

[Rich Fireskull]

Oh I understand. I know that all good things must come to an end. That is why with my older games, consoles or emulated stuff, I don't play them all the time. It's more for a nostalgic feeling every once and a while .

Let's face it. That Twinkie is gonna go bad sooner or later

 

[Falco]

What does TLOPO have to do with emulators?
I still don't understand why people call some POTCO recreations "emulators". It's not even close. As for simulators/emulators vs buying the actual hardware, you could argue a lot whether it's piracy or not.

And writing emulators/simulators isn't an easy task at all. Especially when the simulator/emulator writers are extremely discrete about the art of simulation, companies leaving out certain architectural details, like certain opcodes being undocumented, then there's performance, not being able to natively work with bits (only through bit manipulations) etc. It would be a shame to go against such hard work and sue the writers.

In terms of consoles, I'm mostly against simulation/emulation software. For any other hardware, I'm mostly FOR making simulators/emulators.

 

[Rich Fireskull]

What does TLOPO have to do with emulators?
I still don't understand why people call some POTCO recreations "emulators". It's not even close. As for simulators/emulators vs buying the actual hardware, you could argue a lot whether it's piracy or not.

And writing emulators/simulators isn't an easy task at all. Especially when the simulator/emulator writers are extremely discrete about the art of simulation, companies leaving out certain architectural details, like certain opcodes being undocumented, then there's performance, not being able to natively work with bits (only through bit manipulations) etc. It would be a shame to go against such hard work and sue the writers.

In terms of consoles, I'm mostly against simulation/emulation software. For any other hardware, I'm mostly FOR making simulators/emulators.

Re read the post mate.. Nothing to do with potco/tlopo/insert malformed acronym here. It was just something interesting that Shamus found. It is a good read if you take the time to go over the information

 

[Shamus The Brute]

Re read the post mate.. Nothing to do with potco/tlopo/insert malformed acronym here. It was just something interesting that Shamus found. It is a good read if you take the time to go over the information

It's amazing to me that such topic-of-discussion are being viewed by others (wrongly) that it has to do with TLOPO. Posts written by myself here have tried to gauge whether such topic-of-discussion "could" be applicable towards the community at large (via a future thread) but that point was made directed to the POLL itself attached to this thread and not the thread alone. Still...others continue to think (wrongly) that I have tried to tie TLOPO into this thread when the category itself where this thread has been placed is not TLOPO-specific. Also, it's important to note that this forums permits topic-of-discussion which do not all have to be tied into TLOPO in order for someone to feel compelled to post a thread.

*Since the writing of this thread, a post I deemed here as off-topic had been denied as well as the fact that I was approached by a non-staff member with the hope of apologizing to another. My argument is...if I post to the MUSIC category here, shall such posts be tied into TLOPO interest and discussion? I would hope not because in hindsight, that is just crazy. Anyway (as stated before and more than once), it helps to read the actual information presented rather than just assume it refers to anything specific. After doing so, perhaps others could gained enough knowledge to participate, in turn, to what the POLL itself is intended for...separate from the thread alone and of itself.

 

[Falco]

Re read the post mate.. Nothing to do with potco/tlopo/insert malformed acronym here. It was just something interesting that Shamus found. It is a good read if you take the time to go over the information

I've read the post, then the responses, someone said : "I believe that TLOPO and similar projects aren't in the same boat." And then remembered that everyone used to call POTCO recreations, "emulators". Just said it's wrong, not even close to an emulator. What's so bad about me mentioning that? Is there an unwritten rule that I don't know of? I'm sorry, but then people point at me and say that I'm always the one looking for troubles and looking for someone to argue with. Ridiculous. I will just say whatever I want, as long as I'm mostly sticking to the topic. That's it.

 

[Darkslinger]

I've read the post, then the responses, someone said : "I believe that TLOPO and similar projects aren't in the same boat." And then remembered that everyone used to call POTCO recreations, "emulators". Just said it's wrong, not even close to an emulator. What's so bad about me mentioning that? Is there an unwritten rule that I don't know of? I'm sorry, but then people point at me and say that I'm always the one looking for troubles and looking for someone to argue with. Ridiculous. I will just say whatever I want, as long as I'm mostly sticking to the topic. That's it.

I'm aware of the fact that remakes != emulators. I was referring to how remakes were not in the same boat in terms of a legal position/making developers lose money. I initially thought that Shamus' post was comparing the article to POTCO remakes in general (as I read his concerns concerning the legality of the game before), so my reply was completely off-topic.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

...Just said it's wrong, not even close to an emulator. What's so bad about me mentioning that? Is there an unwritten rule that I don't know of?

Recently, this forums has cracked-down on "off-topic" posts and so this is both the reason why myself (and others) have stated not only your post being as such but the actual post to which your own had referred back to. As such, now this entire thread has gone completely off-course despite efforts by myself (and others) to prevent this from occurring.

...so my reply was completely off-topic.

I appreciate yourself being mature enough to recognize this. Thank you.

 

[Falco]

Recently, this forums has cracked-down on "off-topic" posts and so this is both the reason why myself (and others) have stated not only your post being as such but the actual post to which your own had referred back to. As such, now this entire thread has gone completely off-course despite efforts by myself (and others) to prevent this from occurring.

And how exactly did I contribute to this? From my entire post, only 6 lines were about this. And you try to convince me that I'm in the wrong for mostly being on-topic, but not entirely? It's not my fault, don't try to put the blame on me. If you look closely, bigger part of my post is on-topic. (Actually, there is no topic. The original post is pretty much this : "I read an article, link below. I hope you learn something from it, we have great debates on the forums. POLL above." So what exactly is the topic? There doesn't seem to be any. It's broad enough to be discussed anyway.) I have to just sit and watch. Someone, once again will label me as the "one looking for someone to argue with". I can't make a single post without someone getting triggered about something.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

...And how exactly did I contribute to this? From my entire post, only 6 lines were about this. And you try to convince me that I'm in the wrong for mostly being on-topic, but not entirely? It's not my fault, don't try to put the blame on me. If you look closely, bigger part of my post is on-topic. (Actually, there is no topic. The original post is pretty much this : "I read an article, link below. I hope you learn something from it, we have great debates on the forums. POLL above." So what exactly is the topic? There doesn't seem to be any. It's broad enough to be discussed anyway.) I have to just sit and watch. Someone, once again will label me as the "one looking for someone to argue with". I can't make a single post without someone getting triggered about something.

I will say this one last time and this is not directed at you (for I have been 'where you are at' and I am personally not trying to become triggered by what you have tried to write):

1. This thread's intention came about because of this article: http://www.pcgamer.com/the-ethics-o...community-and-the-law-view-console-emulators/
2. The article touches upon ethics in technology in so far as doing something not given permission to do
3. The article does not set forth to try to "distinguish" a difference between EMULATOR versus PRIVATE SERVER (remake)
4. As thread writer, I have tried to establish some parallel between what the article says pertinent to what the community interests are here (without the desire to 'argue' on the basis of what defines a POTCO remake [such as TLOPO])
5. A poll to the thread itself was to assist with such purpose
6. Someone else tried to argue the difference between the intent of the article and the "terminology" used as to what TLOPO is considered (rather than striving to comment upon 'other' points the article itself does touch-upon)
7. I've reported that post itself as being off-topic from the thread's intention and ultimate purpose
8. That report was denied
9. The post was permitted to stay "as is" and unchanged
10. You initially responded in a way which was in response to that post rather than the actual article (and subsequent points highlighted) pertinent to the community's interest to see POTCO being remade
11. I am not to blame for things now going further off-topic (being that I had tried to report a post already 'given the direction I knew this thread would ultimately go' if the post itself was permitted to stay/remain unchanged)

*Personally, I don't care what people want to classify TLOPO - using terminology! This argument in referring to a remake of POTCO as a specific something has already been made before here on this forums. Given that I don't care what TLOPO "is," it does not remain an interest of mine (pertinent to this thread) to again revisit that form of argument.

If people are NEW here and are not aware of what has already been said...that is not my fault. As a thread writer more or less, people should understand that you don't need to clutter a thread's purpose with an argument which has already been stated. In retrospect, I guess I figured that was the whole purpose behind reporting off-topic posts - shrugs.

 

[Captain Blade]

IM SO CONFUSED WHAT is happending