Discussion Permission...

[Shamus The Brute]

I don't even want to discuss this. These last few days...have been kinda good for myself here on the forums. However, I must ask (because nobody else will nor 'take the shots'). Can everyone, at least, understand my own logic (and reluctance) into such a question asked? I don't want to press this issue, nor cause any trouble! But...

news

news

www.gamasutra.com

...if Disney is entirely forsaking games altogether, why don't we ask (or at least strive to look into what it would take to license 'POTCO' from them)?

Please, don't hate! Again though, it has to be asked given such departure. Articles on the internet, during 2019, all suggest Disney's focus towards games has abruptly changed. Thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[StarfireRose77]

No harm in asking Disney for the license. Maybe in doing so it would help the devs. If they obtained the license would they then be able to let us contribute to help with game improvements?

 

[Asterion]

I agree with that.Also if the devs get the licence from Disney it may lead to a lot less "restrictions" which are now present into the game.

 

[Christopher Cannonskull]

It might be kind of hard for them to do it right now I would imagine the devs would actually need to form a legitimate game development company in order to negotiate with Disney for the license.

Having permission to use the the license could be a great next step in the longevity of TLOPO it would also likely come with several strings attached.

Likely the game would no longer be free hand the direction it takes could be subject to heavy change by Disney

 

[StarfireRose77]

If it was no longer free, imagine if each person gave even just $20/yr per account. That would be money they didn't have to put into making the game better.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

...If they obtained the license would they then be able to let us contribute to help with game improvements?

That is a very good question. I don't know the answer but something worthy of possibly looking into.

I would like to educate, not lecture. (I think that in the past, I made the mistake to do just the opposite. Also, I think it's 'no secret' that I am a bit of a paranoid. I acknowledge this today. But I feel too our greatest threat is that of the unknown. I hope in some way to change that. I ask for everyone's patience, for I make mistakes too).

Here are facts known:

1. Copyright - A huge premise behind the protection of copyright is a developer owner's right to have the means to create "derivative" work within the future from a game's initial scope and development. *For POTCO to be closed, that kinda meant that through Disney Infinity and various mobile games, the POTC brand was allowed to both live and survive. Now that Disney is completely finished with their direct development of games, this level of protection via copyright no longer applies! Hence, more "flexibility" granted to the rest of us.
2. Preservation v.s. Recreation - There is a stark difference!!! Not meaning, at all, to diss TLOPO...the mistake being made is a direct focus to "recreate" the game of POTCO, not to preserve it. This difference is denoted within TLOPO's mission statement. Granted, many activist groups exist to challenge copyright law with the argument stated that, "we cannot preserve something without having the means to properly recreate it," this motive and intention is never discussed/properly mentioned as a legit goal behind TLOPO's desire to see POTCO 2 come to light. I feel, personally, that is damaging to TLOPO.
3. As mentioned above, many activist groups exist which strive to create legitimate, positive change towards current copyright law. Hence and especially if TLOPO sought to "preserve" the MMO joy behind a past Disney game (something to which not even TTR is doing but rather instead, 'recreating'), TLOPO would not be alone towards creating positive change for shuttered MMO's in the future, per the way current copyright law restricts and reads.

This fact that Disney is now out-of-the picture of developing future games, it is about as advantageous as myself getting a kiss on the cheek by Scary Mary on Valentine's Day! My opinion alone here but since Disney has already been kind enough to grant not only TTR but also TLOPO leniency thus far, perhaps a decent thing to do (again, just my opinion) is to strive to seek a plan which includes not only the asking of the license to "preserve" POTCO but also an effort which is cohesive towards their permission gained.
I am no fortune teller but, I think deep down Disney cares about it's public image (so much so) that they perhaps want people to ask them such things - shrugs.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

Myself, in exploiting a personality flaw I do have (in possessing a knack to look usually at both sides of an issue), I would like to emphasize additional facts which do make it incredibly difficult for ex-POTCO players to even want to seek out permission towards what we have been experiencing since September 2013. (Later, if this thread evolves where trolls aren't allowed to manipulate, I will point out other facts which are relevant to consider about this particular issue).

1. Asking permission assumes the best chance of it's success if an individual or a group narrowly defines/targets someone specifically in lieu of the asking (rather than 'ineffectively broadcasting' to various people whom would have to agree together unanimously)
2. It is unknown whom to appropriately ask! (Actual copyright owners for a specific IP, even within a large-scale corporation such as Disney, are difficult to pinpoint. The copyright infringement agent [I would argue] handles his/her job from the perspective of someone wanting to only tighten restriction, not lessen nor lossen it. Therefore, the agent specifically could prove to become a dead end for request of permission sought)
3. Large-scale corporate/entertainment companies readily enforce non-disclosure agreement (NDA) measures which stifle both communication and open door policy talks with the public. This compounds the problem (and kills legit negotiations efforts which might otherwise occur if people were permitted to 'just talk')
4. Each of the above ^ facts, if imposed, make asking for permission to use a copyright protected work both unfair and incredibly unbalanced! Game development companies have themselves to blame for a system of such unfairness

 

[Bart Gunshot]

Spoiler: The image really speaks for itself.

Licensing involves money. Royalties, upfront cost, monetization schemes, negotiation of game direction, stifling of creativity, etc. are all on the table. It might seem like the "just" and "moral" thing to do. But I don't think TLOPO has much bargaining power here, at least not as much as other AAA game development studios Disney approaches for game licensing opportunities.

And I don't know about anyone else but I don't want to see this.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

Spoiler: The image really speaks for itself.

Licensing involves money. Royalties, upfront cost, monetization schemes, negotiation of game direction, stifling of creativity, etc. are all on the table. It might seem like the "just" and "moral" thing to do. But I don't think TLOPO has much bargaining power here, at least not as much as other AAA game development studios Disney approaches for game licensing opportunities.

And I don't know about anyone else but I don't want to see this.

Yeah, you'll have to explain to me. Are you implying licensing would not work to everyone's advantage?

I've done a lot of research on my own. Not understanding everything, I can share that l have walked away with a mindset that has come full circle (with 'the problem' of abandonware/abandoned games). One thing that I would like to reiterate is that there exists opposition out there which closely aligns with the justification of what TLOPO/other remake projects are doing.

It would be a mistake to think that POTCO can be recreated forever with "the approach" currently taken. Again, I do understand now the actual dilemma. Today, I am more apt to think positive change itself can occur in lieu of the law if more gamers would just speak out (and join legit forces which activist groups which sympathize with the very dilemma TLOPO and others are faced against). *In my opinion, we cannot stand alone and given a sense of support backing we could gain from these various groups...our voice could even permeate through the concrete wall of Disney's NDA, if we would just strive to do so.

 

[Bart Gunshot]

Yeah, you'll have to explain to me. Are you implying licensing would not work to everyone's advantage?

I don't see how it would. It would turn into a profit driven venture, which might be alluring to a few TLOPO devs and especially Disney. But profit driven ventures for online "games as a service" turn into exploiting the consumer for everything they have nowadays. Who's to say TLOPO could even turn a profit? I don't think it could, at least not to the point where Disney would be happy.

I don't see how TLOPO could even gain an audience with Disney, who thus far seems only to be licensing to large AAA game publishers such as EA. TLOPO is a loosely formed "non-profit" indie group. They aren't a company they have no true financial team besides how they decide to pay for the servers and services. They have no legal team to represent them in such a deal. This all takes a great deal of money.

I don't even see how this would ensure a better fate for the game than what stands already. It is Disney who abandoned their MMOs and games in the first place. It is Disney who shuttered their departments who handled these games. Whats stopping Disney from shutting it down yet again? The contracted agreement would surely ensure Disney can do this whenever it pleases.

In a perfect world your approach makes a lot of sense. Doing the "right" thing by going through the proper routes to have TLOPO be in good legal standing. But in reality I personally don't see any benefit to enduring the headache any of this would be. I'd rather see TLOPO hit by a C&D honestly than to doom the game to the same fate as POTCO had under Disney.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

I don't see how it would. It would turn into a profit driven venture, which might be alluring to a few TLOPO devs and especially Disney. But profit driven ventures for online "games as a service" turn into exploiting the consumer for everything they have nowadays. Who's to say TLOPO could even turn a profit? I don't think it could, at least not to the point where Disney would be happy.

I don't see how TLOPO could even gain an audience with Disney, who thus far seems only to be licensing to large AAA game publishers such as EA. TLOPO is a loosely formed "non-profit" indie group. They aren't a company they have no true financial team besides how they decide to pay for the servers and services. They have no legal team to represent them in such a deal. This all takes a great deal of money.

I don't even see how this would ensure a better fate for the game than what stands already. It is Disney who abandoned their MMOs and games in the first place. It is Disney who shuttered their departments who handled these games. Whats stopping Disney from shutting it down yet again? The contracted agreement would surely ensure Disney can do this whenever it pleases.

In a perfect world your approach makes a lot of sense. Doing the "right" thing by going through the proper routes to have TLOPO be in good legal standing. But in reality I personally don't see any benefit to enduring the headache any of this would be. I'd rather see TLOPO hit by a C&D honestly than to doom the game to the same fate as POTCO had under Disney.

I will respond some other time when the hour is not so late. *Thank you for responding and sharing the above insight.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

I don't see how it would. It would turn into a profit driven venture, which might be alluring to a few TLOPO devs and especially Disney. But profit driven ventures for online "games as a service" turn into exploiting the consumer for everything they have nowadays. Who's to say TLOPO could even turn a profit? I don't think it could, at least not to the point where Disney would be happy.

I don't see how TLOPO could even gain an audience with Disney, who thus far seems only to be licensing to large AAA game publishers such as EA. TLOPO is a loosely formed "non-profit" indie group. They aren't a company they have no true financial team besides how they decide to pay for the servers and services. They have no legal team to represent them in such a deal. This all takes a great deal of money.

I don't even see how this would ensure a better fate for the game than what stands already. It is Disney who abandoned their MMOs and games in the first place. It is Disney who shuttered their departments who handled these games. Whats stopping Disney from shutting it down yet again? The contracted agreement would surely ensure Disney can do this whenever it pleases.

In a perfect world your approach makes a lot of sense. Doing the "right" thing by going through the proper routes to have TLOPO be in good legal standing. But in reality I personally don't see any benefit to enduring the headache any of this would be. I'd rather see TLOPO hit by a C&D honestly than to doom the game to the same fate as POTCO had under Disney.

So you make some good points about the licensing aspect. What I can tell you is, licensing is just one avenue TLOPO could take to secure both it's leverage and stronghold. While it would put TLOPO/ex-POTCO players under conditions again that is not to say those conditions could not readily be negotiated given both TLOPO's care and culture to assume the remake carried forth as if Disney itself were in charge. I think that in the long-run, what TLOPO has/is doing counts for something and I suspect Disney would feel the same way if things were carefully explained to them.

Here is something I found via Google this morning and it remains yet another option for the community/TLOPO to consider (I took a screenshot of it):

Pertinent to more information about copyright, I will share more about what I now understand through research but, I wanted first to respond to your reply having to do with licensing. (I mentioned 'licensing' only because it could remain an option to consider. Given we still have 2-4 people from REVIVE POTCO active within the community, I feel that if negotiations were to ever occur it should come forth through those people...using 'that experience' alone as reputable source of leverage. This is just my opinion, however).

 

[Shamus The Brute]

On a personal note, I feel there exists great disconnect between people feeling pro/con that much can be achieved outside of remaking a copyright game illegally. While the majority of the community may feel comfortable in letting things "play out," I represent a lone minority which feels quite the opposite. Through this thread, it is therefore my duty/job to educate. I hope I can achieve this. I am...growing tired of lecturing. I hope everyone permits myself the chance to do this and I hope in the end to learn a thing or two (from the rest of you) as well.