Well I think it wouldn't make sense to nerf the explosives because explosives in general are powerful so it should be powerful in tlopo too. I still feel like with the right amount of skill points on explosives we can one-shot most ships so it's not that bad in my opinion.
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Discussion Revert the Copperhead Broadside Nerf - Patch v1.21.2
- Thread starter Charles Warmonk
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Misha
Site Founder
Both I and Truecrash have stated that balancing isn't as easy as it sounds, @Eric Sailcutter. Nerfing the EXPLOSIVE ROUND means not only nerfing the pre-nerf function of Copperhead, it also means nerfing the values of the round when fired from a Cannon, when expelled from the broadside of a Juggernaut, a Spanish Cerberus, a Corsair, etc, which is both an unintended and indirect effect.
It is far easier for the time being to tweak the primary functionality of the upgrade path itself, rather than tweaking more deep-rooted issues such as broadsides, or cannon damage. It just doesn't make sense. Also, quoting your other post regarding Copperheads, believe me, Copperheads are still very much potent and are not more of an "overall" ship. They still are large, angry, and hard to take down, and carry their niche a little more lightly nowadays, making them more fun to play against, and more consistent to play with, which are both the goals in which Development was striving for in order to create a somewhat reasonable ultimatum between the two differences.
EDIT: Also, yes, @Arr.
Any class of Warship (and with some exceptions to the middle class of ships) can sink anything below a Bounty Hunter nearly 100% of the time, assuming the entire broadside connects.
Eric Sailcutter
Pirate Lord
I don’t want any balancing at all, I want the Copperhead to be as it was in potco, some people saying that they were not satisfied with the balance in potco not withstanding. I feel that there is little understanding of why the Copperhead seemed so op in tlopo and that the developers have strayed from fixing it and gone the route of just changing it, with no regard to the way it was in potco, until SvS ppl are satisfied. I don’t think the potco Copperhead was like the tlopo Copperhead and I also think that explosives are more powerful in tlopo than they were in potco. I’m unsure whether the difference is just the explosives or not but I do think such information is available and should be researched. It is clear that the changes implemented are not making the Copperhead more like it was in potco and so I’m against them. Was the Copperhead so op in potco and is my memory of it so faded?
Truecrash
Honorable Pirate
As Developers, we care deeply about the community, and can't just sit idly by when a large group of people are clearly upset with how something is in the game. We won't leave something horribly broken on purpose, especially when it's clear it wasn't like that in the original. This is why we changed Copperhead twice to help align it with what the community as a whole wanted.
For what it's worth, it's never going to be possible to get everything exactly the same as the original, but we will certainly try our best to do just that where it makes sense to. Likewise, we'll also change things where it makes sense to, based on community feedback. We make this game for you guys to enjoy, so of course we're not just going to ignore the majority of the community.
In regards to research, we did a pretty large amount of that in an attempt to capture the feel of what POTCO was going for, and we believe we got it as close as possible while also making the ship upgrade fair to play against, and play with.
I suggest giving the Copperhead a try though, since I've seen you claim that you don't use it. You'll find that it's still one of the strongest upgrades in the game (as shown by the math done by players earlier in this thread!), and still quite enjoyable to use. It certainly fills its own niche still, and sets itself apart from other upgrades. All in all it's still solid, fun to play, and will still feel close to what it did in POTCO, even with slightly different mechanics on the broadsides and turn radius.
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The above statements aside, I'd like to just take a moment to thank everyone for their continued thoughts and feedback about the changes. We do appreciate it, and believe me when I say we read everything you guys send us. This thread, alongside other channels for feedback, was helpful with determining the route to go with balance changes, and I hope we were able to capture the spirit of what everyone as a community wanted. With your continued support as Pirates, we hope to make the Caribbean as fun as possible to play in!
Fair winds, everyone!
Eric Sailcutter
Pirate Lord
I certainly understand that things will not likely ever be exactly as they were in potco but in this instance there is no attempt to make things as they were and that is my complaint. The thrust should be to make the Copperhead as it was in potco not to appease the players. I feel that original parts of the game that were as intended and not broken should at least get an attempt to be restored to as potco was. With new content it’s completely different and balancing and tweaking is expected even after release and the thrust should be to strike a balance between what players want and what provides the best overall gaming experience.
Truecrash
Honorable Pirate
To say there is no attempt in this instance is completely incorrect. We tried our best to get it as close as possible, but it was still too strong, so alternative attempts were made to capture the same feel as in POTCO. This has been stated many times throughout this thread.
Frankly, I don't think you can really say it doesn't feel the same if you don't actually use it, so I'd strongly advise doing that before passing judgement on it. It doesn't matter in the long run if it fires a different amount of explosives, and a 5% increase in turning helps keep it up to par with other upgrades without falling behind completely. It doesn't change the feel of it nearly as much as you claim it does, and it's certainly not a whole different upgrade compared to POTCO. Again, they largely feel the same.
Furthermore, this was the balance between what players want and what provides the best overall gaming experience, and is certainly not new content. I would suggest going back and reading previous posts here to learn more about the change, as well as reviewing the release notes to see what actually was changed, and trying the upgrade out for yourself. You'll find it hardly feels different from POTCO. If you don't wish to try it out however, then I'm afraid I can't really help you here.
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The above aside, saying that the main goal should not be appeasing players would go against everything we stand for as a team. Everything we do is for the players, and that will never change. After all, if there's no players then there's simply no game.
Eric Sailcutter
Pirate Lord
So, you are saying that increasing the percent chance of explosives from 15% to 55% when the original was 15% and changing the turning radius from was it 10% worse, not certain off the top of my head, to 5% worse even though it clearly was 10% worse in potco and limiting explosives to one per broadside even though there was no such limit in potco are attempts to put it back as it was in potco? Said for effect, I do get that you think it’s making it “feel” like potco. If you do everything that players want then the game will no longer be a recreation of potco, so, I hope you will not do that. I agree that in the case of new content the players wishes should be of great consideration but not the only consideration, players such as myself do not see the whole picture. With original potco content I still hope for, against all odds it appears, it to be restored as faithfully as possible with exception to obvious bugs and things that it seems Disney had intended but failed to do.
Truecrash
Honorable Pirate
There was no changes that lowered turn radius by 10% or 5%, I think you may be reading the release notes incorrectly. Please, read the previous posts of this thread and re-read the release notes, this has all been discussed in great detail already, and it sounds like there's a lot of confusion here about what was actually changed and why.
I'm afraid I can't be of any further help here, however. I hope ye have a pleasant day, and fair winds. Best of luck with defeating Jolly Roger and his minions
FranciscoHernandez
Buccaneer
Anyone that says Copperhead needs a nerf just doesn't know how to counter it properly. Enough said.
Eric Sailcutter
Pirate Lord
EnhancementsThere was no changes that lowered turn radius by 10% or 5%, I think you may be reading the release notes incorrectly. Please, read the previous posts of this thread and re-read the release notes, this has all been discussed in great detail already, and it sounds like there's a lot of confusion here about what was actually changed and why.
I'm afraid I can't be of any further help here, however. I hope ye have a pleasant day, and fair winds. Best of luck with defeating Jolly Roger and his minions
Tweaked Copperhead broadside chances to 15/35/55 at levels 4/5/6.
Tweaked level 6 Copperheads to have a 5% bonus to turning speed.
Changed starting bounties in SvS to scale off pirate level and SvS rank, up to a cap of 100.
From the release notes, turning has been improved on the Copperhead, only my terminology is in question.
That's all well and good. However something seems amiss. Ah, the publishing of the PVE communities input on the subject of copperhead nerfing. What exactly large group of people are clearly upset? I submit it was the svs, pvp crowd. And those groups can certainly be correct in their complaints... IN the svs, pvp groups. So, 2 out of 3 communities may have complained and to quell the possibly justifiable noise, the third group is thrown into the soup. Perhaps the tlopo developers had no choice coding wise, perhaps the dev's didn't want to work that hard creating more code to effect certain modules independently or something who knows.
It's not my sandbox. But I think something this salty could of perhaps been publicly announced on the forums and FB for real time direct input from ALL the groups in tlopo for like a set amount of time. Perhaps the devs don't believe player input in those venues would be valuable. That's speculation. But 10 pages and growing of all sorts drama and input should show there's something about forum and FB input as well. Obviously, it's their game, but sometimes they just seem to go ahead with 'improvements' and then try to justify it later to the players.
But the unsettling thing is numerous devs, forum mods and staff all have not addressed the question about PVE complaints.
It now is mostly moot as the improvements have been made. I was working up to a copperhead but that's kind of moot now too as sure, I wanted a monster ship that could lay waste to most things in my path, but that's why I toiled to scrape measly 8 iron once in awhile for hours on end and spend ALL my money if I miraculously got my mats. It is hell getting all that stuff, as it should be to get a monster of a ship. Now in pve I don't think copperhead is all that special any more. If there was an advantage, I believed all the effort to amass what is needed justified the means. And I don't even put much importance about inventory or brag about hard work involved as some sort of badge. So yea, if the copperhead was a little OP, so what? We earned it. And if that OP was too much for svs and pvp players, fix it in their arena, leave my game enjoyment alone in pve.
Pvp and svs may be broken to groups of people who do that part of the game, but my real objection is changing something for the worse in pve so svs and pvp can be made better. At least thats what its looking like to this non developer beta tester and player.
Char Gold Rogers
Swashbuckler
Idk where you’re getting a thunderbolt dealing 3x the damage lol and do you not take in rams or sailing combos into your mathematics? Do you disregard in field experience? I’ve tested it with my guild mates. Copper has always been the best.
Bubba Bunny x
Dockworker
Why change something when sailing mechanics aren't completely up to par still is my question?????
Truecrash
Honorable Pirate
We can not publish private feedback. This poses a security risk to players, as any private feedback is given with the knowledge that it is between that player and staff. We will not violate this trust just because someone requests us to. The only thing we can do is generalize it, by pointing out that there was a large volume, or what was wrong with the ship upgrade originally -- which is exactly what we did earlier in this thread.
At this point, the debate has died down completely with the latest changes, minus a few stray complaints. We've received almost no complaints outside of this thread. I'd say the changes are pretty swell, thanks to all the feedback from the community, to the point that nothing further needs to be done for the time being.
Just a reminder, but I'm the developer behind this change, so I can assure you this was not the case. We only made the change in response to a large amount of feedback related to Copperhead. I've stated this in multiple posts in the thread, it may be worthwhile to go re-read them.
Masternan
Dockworker
I agree 100% with what your saying on this. I do not do much svs but I do a lot of mat runs using a copperhead war brig but now I can do a full run and only see 1 explosive during the entire time i'm out there, maybe 2 if i'm lucky. And now that it being worse than firebrand makes it very bad as firebrand is the worse ammo in the game and it sucks in svs. I would of just thought to lower the chances to maybe 5% per cannon and not just get rid of it all together and have it so only 1 cannon can fire an explosive. For me getting iron is so much easier than getting pine as I can get 60 iron for every 15 pine during a mat run.
Masternan
Dockworker
That would be good for the people who have a steel cannon ram but what about the ones who don't own a good cannon ram?
Eric Sailcutter
Pirate Lord
With all the previous posts saying all kinds of things your post doesn’t make your position clear. Is the idea to revert stupid or are the arguments for or against stupid or something else?
Cutthroat Mc Rage
Swashbuckler
I've learned that people who claim to speak for an entire community often are only speaking for a few of their friends. I'm sure you're not aware as you aren't often involved in Privateering; however, the Copperhead "nerf" was highly requested by many people who take part in SvS. At best, you speak for players who don't really privateer. Perhaps nerfing the copperhead isn't the perfect solution, but it's the best solution at the moment as there weren't many viable alternatives. If you can think of any, please suggest them.
Yes. We determined this to be fair as a Copperhead (War Brig/War Frigate) could sink any ship with one broadside and was extremely overpowered. I'm sorry that you can't run your solo loot runs anymore. However, the Stormchaser War Brig is an excellent choice to do a loot run with.
This is subjective.
Before you claim to "speak for the entire community", pleasure ensure that you actually are gaining the opinions of many different types of players.
EDIT:
Also for clarification, each cannon still has a 15% chance to shoot an explosive, the difference is that they'll stop once one is fired. One Explosive does approximately 6,000 damage which is the equivalent of 4-6 Thunderbolts. What we did is known as "balancing". Copperheads still remain the strongest ships in terms of armor as well.
6480.0 Level 5 explosive shot from broadside
1620.0 Level 5 thunderbolt from broadside
I personally do not care how you sugar coat it the point is you should have left the ships alone. You claim this to be a POTCO remake and you change the ships give me a break bad move. Oh and ya still pay big to make a copperhead. Why is that nerf the price as well do it right if ya gonna fudge everything up? This balancing jive is just that jive it all worked fine in SVS for POTCO we all had fun and to sink a copperhead in potco one of many ways was for war sloops to have fury crews to stay out of broad range of the copperhead and yet in fury range to take them down so this baby cry out was just that skill less Lil whiners that wanted to make it easy on themselves is all. PUT THE SHIPS BACK TO THERE ORIGINAL SPECS and quit the baby bull out. What ya worried about your not making money off players for this so leaving them the original way ya wouldn't go broke if ya lost a few mates would ya and you know as well as I know they wouldn't go anywhere anyway. I do not care if the ship was nerfed only 1% its the point it was nerfed, to begin with. So maybe all us that want em back to normal should start a big stink now like then that wanted them nerfed then we can have them changed back to original specs right and if not why not as it was enough for you to change it for them so what's fair is fair right? I say maybe I or others should start a movement and everyone e-mail the team so they can get counted officially and we really see what players truly think of the nerf jive. How's that sound that sounds fair right? Sounds like a great idea to me
Hummmm soon I think ill just have to get to work on making that happen maybe 
Beastman
Honorable Pirate
As much as I disagree with cutthroat, he has somewhat of a point. Sure it breaks the game and makes svs intolerable, but you do pay an exceptional amount of materials for the copper privilege, and owners should expect maybe a 25% chance of explosive instead or something comparable that proves undeniably that the copper is the hardest ship to max in game.
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