Discussion Revert the Copperhead Broadside Nerf - Patch v1.21.2

[Jack Goldtooth]

Is that only in SvS, or Copperhead overall? Cause if Copperhead got nerfed overall then I agree it needs to be buffed or reverted... seems silly to me that people who've invested in a War Galleon/Frigate Copperhead now have the same chance overall for explosives in their broadside as a copperhead sloop. Copperhead is an extremely expensive upgrade and to nerf it to that degree is ridiculous. If this is temporary because it's OP due to something that needs fixing I understand, I would rather them just disable Copperhead's Broadside in SvS if this is that much of an issue and they're looking to make permanent changes.

 

[Roger-Daniel]

Is that only in SvS, or Copperhead overall? Cause if Copperhead got nerfed overall then I agree it needs to be buffed or reverted... seems silly to me that people who've invested in a War Galleon/Frigate Copperhead now have the same chance overall for explosives in their broadside as a copperhead sloop. Copperhead is an extremely expensive upgrade and to nerf it to that degree is ridiculous. If this is temporary because it's OP due to something that needs fixing I understand, I would rather them just disable Copperhead's Broadside in SvS if this is that much of an issue and they're looking to make permanent changes.

it's overall

 

[Ned_Reddavis]

War Galleon/Frigate Copperhead now have the same chance overall for explosives in their broadside as a copperhead sloop.

They have the same maximum quantity of explosive shots (just 1 now), but not the same overall chance at one coming out per broadside. Sloops have fewer broadside cannons than frigates, and frigates fewer than galleons and brigs. War sloops shoot 7 shots per broadside, whereas brigs and galleons shoot 12. With a little math you can discern that copperhead war sloops have a 68% statistical chance to produce an explosive shot per broadside, while galleons and brigs have about an 86% statistical chance. They are, therefore, not the same overall chance for explosives in their broadside.

 

[Eric Sailcutter]

If you want the game more like Potco, then idk why you aren’t focusing on latency or proper upgrades... Or range in ship visions without them disappearing. You seem to only focus on those one shots copper heads. All the things I listed above made copper heads op and made this nerf happen. It involves more than those one shot broadsides

Of course I want all those things to be fixed it's just that this thread is about the Copperhead nerf so that is the discussion we are having here.

 

[Roger-Daniel]

from the latest update v1.21.8

 

[PatchyThePirate]

so basically I wasted a ton of real time and in game money fully upgrading it. Most people just don't care to PvP in this game. 98% of the time people are using their ships to PvE. If they turned something into a PvP only upgrade, then that is really wrong.

 

[Will Callecutter]

from the latest update v1.21.8
View attachment 115942

According to my math, for a ship with 12 broadside cannons, this update results in the following (chance of getting an explosive in a broadside, and average damage output relative to a stock broadside, respectively):
4: 85.8%, 179% (this is what rank 6 copper did before this update)
5: 99.4%, 191%
6: 100%*, 192%

This effectively eliminates the chance of getting a broadside with no explosive, so the average damage output increases. Storm chaser does 190% average damage relative to stock so although the difference won't be noticeable it technically puts copper back on top. Also interesting is that even at rank 5 the chance of getting an explosive and the damage output is practically the same as 6. But 6 adds a slight turning improvement so that'll be interesting to try out.

*It's really 99.993% but it doesn't matter.

 

[Char Gold Rogers]

I've done the math, storm chaser comes out on top now. I'd love to be proven wrong though

Idk what math you did lol but rest assured, it was very wrong

 

[Will Callecutter]

Idk what math you did lol but rest assured, it was very wrong

Thunderbolt does 3x the damage of round shot, and at a 45% chance this results in a damage output of 190% (where 100% would be a stock broadside). 0.45*3+0.55*1=1.90. There's a thread somewhere where this is discussed in detail.

Explosive does 12x the damage of round shot. For a ship with 12 broadsides, getting 1 explosive and 11 round shot gives a damage output of 192%. Then include the probability you won't get any explosive at all (which was discussed earlier in this thread) and you get an average damage output of 179%. As I already discussed above, yesterday's update changes this and copper is now back on top, by a hair.

 

[Ned_Reddavis]

Idk what math you did lol but rest assured, it was very wrong

I'm arriving at the same results as Will here with a slightly different approach through finding average shot damage of a broadside. The math is very right.

 

[Crashalot]

Sorry, but the copperhead was originally intended to be a safer ship and was never the most powerful option in POTCO.
15% chance of explosives means you have a possible 15 shots out of every 100 shots fired as being explosives, on average, as the math flies.
It never meant you'd have a full barrage of explosives in any broadside fired.
If you want a powerful ship, you have to sacrifice something else.
That's just how the game was set up, as it balances the forces.
Copperhead was a "safe" ship that had a powerful explosive shot rarely, as in 15% of a chance.
The most powerful ship in POTCO was always the Storm Chaser, which has as a result, the weakest armor.
There's always a trade off, which makes perfect sense.
The skull and Bones offers slightly better armor, and slightly more powerful broadsides, which is also in balance.
I'm glad the devs have decided to finally balance out the Copperhead, as it was long over due.

 

[Will Callecutter]

Sorry, but the copperhead was originally intended to be a safer ship and was never the most powerful option in POTCO.
15% chance of explosives means you have a possible 15 shots out of every 100 shots fired as being explosives, on average, as the math flies.
It never meant you'd have a full barrage of explosives in any broadside fired.
If you want a powerful ship, you have to sacrifice something else.
That's just how the game was set up, as it balances the forces.
Copperhead was a "safe" ship that had a powerful explosive shot rarely, as in 15% of a chance.
The most powerful ship in POTCO was always the Storm Chaser, which has as a result, the weakest armor.
There's always a trade off, which makes perfect sense.
The skull and Bones offers slightly better armor, and slightly more powerful broadsides, which is also in balance.
I'm glad the devs have decided to finally balance out the Copperhead, as it was long over due.

TLOPO copperhead (pre-patch) was indeed firing at 15%. I don't remember POTCO well but I think I read somewhere earlier that TLOPO explosive does more damage than in POTCO, if true, it explains why the copperhead damage was higher as well, and thus this nerf was needed. As of this recent patch, copper is back in 1st place (but only just barely), followed by storm chaser and then S&B.

 

[Crashalot]

TLOPO copperhead (pre-patch) was indeed firing at 15%. I don't remember POTCO well but I think I read somewhere earlier that TLOPO explosive does more damage than in POTCO, if true, it explains why the copperhead damage was higher as well, and thus this nerf was needed. As of this recent patch, copper is back in 1st place (but only just barely), followed by storm chaser and then S&B.

On the copperheads I own on different alts, sometimes, be it random accident or whatever else, there would often be 50 to 100% explosives fired, repeatedly.
That's not how it was in POTCO.
Copperhead was slow, cumbersome and safe. It had powerful shots, which were not as potent as they are in TLOPO. I've seen damage from my explosives in the high 5 digit range, which is absurd, tbh.
I've been able to singleshot an En-Garde many times with a copperhead, and that's just not possible. It used to require 5 solid broadsides on a tally-ho to sink it with a copperhead, and now 3 is enough if all rounds hit the target.
Also, the armor on a copperhead was meant to sustain one explosives broadside from a ship of the line or a Corsair. Now it can take up to 3, depending.
15% chance means 15% chance.
In Potco, that meant 15 out of every 100 shots fired, on average.
In Tlopo, there's never a broadsides that does not have at least 1 explosive round in a single broadside, which mathematically speaking, is well over 15% per 100 shots fired. In fact, the number of explosives is well near 50% on any random broadside.
Potco was more challenging and balanced the "pros" and "cons" of each ship type.
The concept in Potco was to not have a single class or type of ship that overwhelmed all other ships, which seems to be the case in Tlopo.

 

[Will Callecutter]

On the copperheads I own on different alts, sometimes, be it random accident or whatever else, there would often be 50 to 100% explosives fired, repeatedly.
That's not how it was in POTCO.
Copperhead was slow, cumbersome and safe. It had powerful shots, which were not as potent as they are in TLOPO. I've seen damage from my explosives in the high 5 digit range, which is absurd, tbh.
I've been able to singleshot an En-Garde many times with a copperhead, and that's just not possible. It used to require 5 solid broadsides on a tally-ho to sink it with a copperhead, and now 3 is enough if all rounds hit the target.
Also, the armor on a copperhead was meant to sustain one explosives broadside from a ship of the line or a Corsair. Now it can take up to 3, depending.
15% chance means 15% chance.
In Potco, that meant 15 out of every 100 shots fired, on average.
In Tlopo, there's never a broadsides that does not have at least 1 explosive round in a single broadside, which mathematically speaking, is well over 15% per 100 shots fired. In fact, the number of explosives is well near 50% on any random broadside.
Potco was more challenging and balanced the "pros" and "cons" of each ship type.
The concept in Potco was to not have a single class or type of ship that overwhelmed all other ships, which seems to be the case in Tlopo.

I'm not disagreeing that it was OP and needed a nerf. I'm just curious about the number of explosives per broadside you say you were getting, that's all. Were you estimating 50-100% based on damage or did you actually see the explosive shot itself?

Depending on the ship, 1 explosive per broadside isn't over 15%, and for some that would be low. At 15%, ships with 12 broadside cannons average 1.8 explosives per broadside. Mine definitely matched up to that.

Maybe you got a really lucky ship?

 

[Eric Sailcutter]

I'm not disagreeing that it was OP and needed a nerf. I'm just curious about the number of explosives per broadside you say you were getting, that's all. Were you estimating 50-100% based on damage or did you actually see the explosive shot itself?

Depending on the ship, 1 explosive per broadside isn't over 15%, and for some that would be low. At 15%, ships with 12 broadside cannons average 1.8 explosives per broadside. Mine definitely matched up to that.

Maybe you got a really lucky ship?

I think there is more to this that people think. I never saw Copperheads being as OP as is claimed in this thread.

 

[Eric Sailcutter]

Now it's even worse as they have improved the turning and tased the chance of explosives to 55% on a lvl 6, they just can't stop changing rather than fixing...

 

[Arr]

Now it's even worse as they have improved the turning and tased the chance of explosives to 55% on a lvl 6, they just can't stop changing rather than fixing...

Isn't a 55% chance a good thing?

 

[Eric Sailcutter]

Isn't a 55% chance a good thing?

It should be 15%. So no, I consider it to be a bad compromise that is trying to make up for the poor decision to nerf the Copperhead rather than fix it. They have made the Copperhead weaker, quicker turning, and more consistent; all things that the Copperhead shouldn’t be. It has upset the balance of ship upgrades.

 

[Arr]

It should be 15%. So no, I consider it to be a bad compromise that is trying to make up for the poor decision to nerf the Copperhead rather than fix it. They have made the Copperhead weaker, quicker turning, and more consistent; all things that the Copperhead shouldn’t be. It has upset the balance of ship upgrades.

I guess it's a bit weaker but it was overpowered so getting only 1 explosive per broadside round with a 55% chance still makes it powerful.

 

[Eric Sailcutter]

I guess it's a bit weaker but it was overpowered so getting only 1 explosive per broadside round with a 55% chance still makes it powerful.

Yes, but in a very different way that is less extreme in several ways. It’s more of a mashed potato than a habanero now. If the explosive shots were too op then they should have been the thing to nerf, not the way that the Copperhead was designed, ugh.