C
Crashalot
I'm not, nor did I say I was. You said all of that or somehow attributed it to me my friend...
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Discussion Strongest Upgrade for a Warbrig
- Thread starter TheramoreIsTheBomb
- Start date
I'm not, nor did I say I was. You said all of that or somehow attributed it to me my friend...
C
Crashalot
I never use all ammo types to sink an enemy ship. I only use round shot when on cannons. Thunderbolt is for long distance shooting and explosives are only there for the copperhead.
Sky Kiwi
Pirate Master
Never said you actually did that, you just said enemy stage doesn't matter. I was saying it does through example.
I'm the same way, but for the purposes of this experiment I used the special ammo on cannon for these numbers, as it's the easiest way to get reliable numbers. Broadsides you can't force them to hit the exact spot, or fire in singles.
Dreadful
Notorious Pirate
I don't know why this would need to be so complicated. To figure out which does more damage in what situations/over what periods of time, just do this
- Assume the user has 5 skill points in both
- Take the damage ranges from each ammunition with 5 skill points given
- Multiply by the % chance to fire each ammunition type
Thunderbolt damage (5 skill points) - 949 to 1897
Explosive damage (5 skill points) - 5250 to 10500
949 to 1897 x 45% (.45) - 427.05 to 853.65
5250 to 10500 x 15% (.15) - 787.5 to 1575
These values represent the average damage per each broadside before being multiplied by the number of broadsides. The number of broadsides is irrelevant to the comparison, as the numbers will stay the same given that you're using the same multiplier for each ammunition type. You can say what you want about how sometimes you'll get no explosives shot or whatever, but heck, sometimes you could get no thunderbolt shot either. Or you could get all explosives or all thunderbolt shot. Ultimately, those values will stay true though. It's just the same principle of how when you flip a coin 10 times, you may never get either heads or tails, or may get other results disproportionate to the 50/50 odds for getting either heads or tails. But, the more times you flip the coin, the closer the results will get to 50/50, so after flipping it, say, a thousand times, you'll probably end up within 10% or so of a 50/50 split.
The only other factor to consider here is whether or not the damage ranges per skill point are of the same proportion, and having done the calculations, they're close enough that it probably won't make a significant difference.
Overall, Copperhead seems to be significantly higher in damage from what I can tell. I'm still going with Stormchaser though, because I don't have 5 skill points in Explosive and there's not a Cannon skill I'm willing to take down a few points to get it there.
Sky Kiwi
Pirate Master
Cannon numbers in broadsides is indeed irrelevant as you say. If you noticed, I only added that extra step once, and I only did that because that's the number people are generally more interested in seeing. All the other times I just grabbed the average damage number per cannon.
I didn't think it was complicated. Again, it was a simple formula. However, I've noticed that the damage ranges given in the stat menu (and to a much greater extent, the wiki) aren't always accurate. That is why I grabbed the numbers myself by actually dealing the damage - to ensure I was using the correct numbers.
And yes, grabbing the explosive cannon type is certainly a price to pay for copperhead. I sacrificed fury, unfortunately, as I also need thunderbolt for my Storm Chaser.
WilyJaymes
Honorable Pirate
Ok math professors debating in the teachers' lounge with your coffee mugs. I didn't read every post, but here's a little tidbit that I've observed. It may prove useful. Let's use the damage values of thunderbolt/explosive and convert them to round shot's worth. I'm making round shot a unit of measurement for ease of understanding.
A good piece of information is that - according to the numbers on the skills tab - explosive does exactly 10x the damage of round shot. Thunderbolt is roughly 3x the damage of round shot (as observed from actual testing).
So, let's take a war brig and its 12 broadsides per side.
-With a 15% chance on explosive, you're getting on average 1.8 per volley.
1.8x10+10.2 = 28.2 round shots worth of damage
-with a 45% chance on thunderbolt, you're getting on average 5.4 per volley.
5.4x3+6.6 = 22.8 round shots worth of damage
It isn't very complicated guys. Copperhead outclasses storm chaser in terms of dps.
A good piece of information is that - according to the numbers on the skills tab - explosive does exactly 10x the damage of round shot. Thunderbolt is roughly 3x the damage of round shot (as observed from actual testing).
So, let's take a war brig and its 12 broadsides per side.
-With a 15% chance on explosive, you're getting on average 1.8 per volley.
1.8x10+10.2 = 28.2 round shots worth of damage
-with a 45% chance on thunderbolt, you're getting on average 5.4 per volley.
5.4x3+6.6 = 22.8 round shots worth of damage
It isn't very complicated guys. Copperhead outclasses storm chaser in terms of dps.
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C
Crashalot
Yes, your math is almost correct, but it isn't. Explosives are not 10 times more powerful than round shot for starters, and secondly, you don't get 1.8 explosives, although that would seem plausible, based on your math. (anyone ever shoot 0.8 worth of cannon shot before? No, no you haven't, and never will)
Reality says you don't get explosives every broadside, and get few explosives period.
So, reality shows us that is not reliable, and you only get, as posted previously, 15 explosives per 100 shots fired.
I don't care if those broadsides are nuclear (nucular for those that don't know what nuclear is...), you have less power at any/every given time, which makes storm chaser the most powerful ship a pirate can own.
It's just the way it is, regardless of what the "maths" says it should be.
Sky Kiwi
Pirate Master
It's called average. If you shoot your broadsides twice, and the first time you get one explosive and the second time you get two, on average you fired 1.5 explosives per broadside ((1 + 2) / 2). You can use math to figure this out per broadside. 15% chance of explosives, 12 broadsides. 12 * 0.15 = 1.8 explosives per broadside.
WilyJaymes
Honorable Pirate
averages start to become noticeable over higher sample sizes, but are reliably calculable from base values. Side note: there's a significant chance for that 1.8 to become 2 out of 12.
Seems like you're using quite a bit of mental gymnastics to arrive at the conclusion of: oh storm chaser pwnz all
Seems like you're using quite a bit of mental gymnastics to arrive at the conclusion of: oh storm chaser pwnz all
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C
Crashalot
No, there's not. The math is simple; you get 15 explosives per 100 shots fired. That's all you get.
And since the rng decides when those shots are fired, they're usually not when you want 'em to fire, and/or wasted as misses.
WilyJaymes
Honorable Pirate
Ok man... I'll be generous. Your way of thinking about this is the same as averages, but with different numbers. It all comes out to being no different.
100 shots with copperhead 15/100 = 235 round shots worth of damage
100 shots with thunderbolt 45/100 = 190 round shots worth of damage
That results in the EXACT same ratio as my previous example:
235/190 = 1.24
28.2/22.8 = 1.24
That's rounded up, but even you go out 10 digits it's the same number LOL
I'm continuing to use my multipliers since you've given me no evidence to believe otherwise. Just, "naw it's wrong cawz...reasons"
100 shots with copperhead 15/100 = 235 round shots worth of damage
100 shots with thunderbolt 45/100 = 190 round shots worth of damage
That results in the EXACT same ratio as my previous example:
235/190 = 1.24
28.2/22.8 = 1.24
That's rounded up, but even you go out 10 digits it's the same number LOL
I'm continuing to use my multipliers since you've given me no evidence to believe otherwise. Just, "naw it's wrong cawz...reasons"
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WilyJaymes
Honorable Pirate
So, I just experienced something that seems to suggest explosive is more powerful than I originally thought.
Results gathered from a broadside with my copperhead on a Tally-Ho's side with its armor still up. Both of mine are level 5.
Round shots dealt 450 damage
Explosives dealt 5,700 damage
12.7x round shot
There must be some other calculations going on in the game besides what the skill numbers say.
Can you confirm something similar @Sky Kiwi ?
Results gathered from a broadside with my copperhead on a Tally-Ho's side with its armor still up. Both of mine are level 5.
Round shots dealt 450 damage
Explosives dealt 5,700 damage
12.7x round shot
There must be some other calculations going on in the game besides what the skill numbers say.
Can you confirm something similar @Sky Kiwi ?
Sky Kiwi
Pirate Master
Yeah, this is why I mentioned this earlier:
I noticed a while ago that the in-game skill menu and the numbers on the wiki both seem to be quite inaccurate for a lot of skills. As I mostly sail, it's the cannonball numbers I noticed most. I think it was a while ago when I compared thunderbolt to fury I spotted this, though I'm not sure if that's the case anymore.
In the end, that's why I grabbed my own numbers haha.
4024 / 335 = 12.01
So we seem to be getting different numbers there too. My theory is hunter/warship damage reduction isn't just a multiplier, there could be a flat reduction in there, which would make it more effective against weaker shots (round shot) than it is against stronger ones (explosives). Which actually would make explosives even better against hunters/warships than thunderbolts! (And possibly SvS too?)
This theory would line up with the fact that your explosive multiplier is higher than mine, as Warships have greater damage reductions than Hunters.
WilyJaymes
Honorable Pirate
Very interesting. Not surprising though. There seems to be so much going on under the hood in this game that isn't listed anywhere.
Here's something else I observed. It's hard to make out individual numbers in that red cloud of digits, but I did notice that all the round shots were around 450. That would suggest that where it falls within the range is decided for the whole broadside upon firing. Could that potentially mean the explosives in that volley fell within the same spot of their range as the round shots did? I'll have to look some more to see if the 12.7x is a recurring thing.
As far as I know, warship/hunter damage reduction seems to heavily rely on notoriety level in much the same way that land enemies function. The bit about armor being more effective against weaker ammo types seems unlikely, but I suppose it is a possibility.
Here's something else I observed. It's hard to make out individual numbers in that red cloud of digits, but I did notice that all the round shots were around 450. That would suggest that where it falls within the range is decided for the whole broadside upon firing. Could that potentially mean the explosives in that volley fell within the same spot of their range as the round shots did? I'll have to look some more to see if the 12.7x is a recurring thing.
As far as I know, warship/hunter damage reduction seems to heavily rely on notoriety level in much the same way that land enemies function. The bit about armor being more effective against weaker ammo types seems unlikely, but I suppose it is a possibility.
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Sky Kiwi
Pirate Master
The numbers aren't actually randomized. That range it gives you? It doesn't pick a random number from it. Your cannonballs have a flat power - when you shoot the same kind of ship (eg. any common ship) you'll always hit the same number, the only exception is weak spots (the back of the ship) and the increased damage against spots without armour.
So every cannonball in a broadside has the same damage, and the next broadside will have the same damage as that one.
I think the skill menu showing a range is just to represent that cannonballs can do more damage in certain situations (such as when the enemy ship has no armour)
WilyJaymes
Honorable Pirate
Yeah, you are right. It's what I get for trying to crack a mystery at 4 a.m. lol...my mind goes off on a tangent and forgets about obvious details
Sky Kiwi
Pirate Master
I've been there before haha, I totally understand. Thanks for talking numbers with me though! I love that stuff, and I rarely get to talk to anyone that's anywhere near as interested as I am in it.
WilyJaymes
Honorable Pirate
Aye. I've almost always got my calculator at arm's length in case I'm curious about something number related. Even thought about working out a standard deviation for the broadside chances XD...that's a little overboard
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WilyJaymes
Honorable Pirate
I did another test today. This time I used a cannon so I could see the numbers more clearly.
It was done on an En-Garde with broken armor and on the side.
Explosive: 9936
Round Shot: 828
That comes out to be exactly 12x. I think the first time I must've made a mistake 'eyeballing' the broadside numbers.
I'd say explosive = 12 time stronger than round shot. Case closed.
Would it also be reasonable to assume that explosive = 4 times stronger than thunderbolt?
Inserting that number into my version of the formula gives us:
(For War Brigs) (Rs = abbreviation for the round shot unit)
1.8x12+10.2 = 31.8Rs
5.4x3+6.6 = 22.8Rs
Therefore, on average, copperheads deal 39.5% more damage than storm chasers. And I believe that's very close to the percentage you came out with @Sky Kiwi
It was done on an En-Garde with broken armor and on the side.
Explosive: 9936
Round Shot: 828
That comes out to be exactly 12x. I think the first time I must've made a mistake 'eyeballing' the broadside numbers.
I'd say explosive = 12 time stronger than round shot. Case closed.
Would it also be reasonable to assume that explosive = 4 times stronger than thunderbolt?
Inserting that number into my version of the formula gives us:
(For War Brigs) (Rs = abbreviation for the round shot unit)
1.8x12+10.2 = 31.8Rs
5.4x3+6.6 = 22.8Rs
Therefore, on average, copperheads deal 39.5% more damage than storm chasers. And I believe that's very close to the percentage you came out with @Sky Kiwi
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Sky Kiwi
Pirate Master
Yep, towards 40% sounds about right!
I'm wondering if different damage reductions are why we're getting different numbers. Higher percentage over stormchaser for warships than hunters lines up with my earlier theory about the resistances being less effective on harder hitting cannonballs.