The Benefits of Open Source Development

Shamus The Brute said:
If you're willing to risk the safety and legitimacy of this community by inviting them formally in, then your also responsible for any sort of damage which is ultimately caused. I guess that doesn't bother you though (I am assuming).
Click to expand...
If they aren't able to develop the game, then they won't be hired.
 
May I ask that we ignore the flaws and "security issues" with open-source projects, and actually focus on the real matter, which is why it would be better? So what if someone "takes and makes" their own POTCO using public files from an open source project? It doesn't hurt anyone. If anything it helps everyone by giving other contributors something to improve on, or better yet, give them an idea on how to fix something that is broken in their own public project.

The point is, why are we so afraid to go open source on our projects when the pros out way the cons? Think about it.. It has been a little over a year and a half since POTCO closed down and we still don't have a rebuilt game. I will acknowledge that what these projects are doing isn't the easiest, but still.

I will leave you for now, with this one question.

How long would it take to rebuild the game if we had gone open-source from the start?
 
Rich Fireskull said:
May I ask that we ignore the flaws and "security issues" with open-source projects, and actually focus on the real matter, which is why it would be better? So what if someone "takes and makes" their own POTCO using public files from an open source project? It doesn't hurt anyone. If anything it helps everyone by giving other contributors something to improve on, or better yet, give them an idea on how to fix something that is broken in their own public project.

The point is, why are we so afraid to go open source on our projects when the pros out way the cons? Think about it.. It has been a little over a year and a half since POTCO closed down and we still don't have a rebuilt game. I will acknowledge that what these projects are doing isn't the easiest, but still.

I will leave you for now, with this one question.

How long would it take to rebuild the game if we had gone open-source from the start?
Click to expand...
It would've took as long as if it was closed source. Trust me on that one. If a project is open-source, it doesn't mean it's gonna get a whole load of experienced, really smart developers to start coding. The POTCO community doesn't have the right developers, and there wouldn't be that much more progress if it was open-source.
 
xXWilee999Xx said:
The POTCO community doesn't have the right developers
Click to expand...
I know what ye mean but the way you worded that makes it sound like even those that are in the community don't have what it takes (and I know they do). And the thing with open-source projects is, that someone could come and take a look that has played the original POTCO before, and end up fixing some major bug. The whole point is that we cannot stay within the small "POTCO community" bubble that we have trapped ourselves in. Not to pick on anyone, but a question that I saw a lot in the many "interviews" was "Did you play pirates?". Does it matter if the developer did or did not?

It makes me believe that you guys don't want some new person coming in and attempting to work on something because 1. you do not know them, and 2. they didn't play the game you hold so dearly to your piratey hearts. Or perhaps you do want the remake to be worked on, but only by people who played POTCO... That's like putting an ad for a job out that says "Dog walker needed! Requirements: You must have walked a dog before."... What kind of job ad is that? We just cannot expect our small community alone to rebuild a game. You say that the community doesn't have the right programmers? Go outside of the community.

As someone who has and is continuing his study to become a computer programmer and has taken and passed a college level Python class (as well as previous experience doing simple things before that) and gone through decompiled and partially rebuilt versions of the game, yes, you do need a good Python programmer. I know the work involved :) Also, you need someone who understands the Panda3d engine as well, but what you don't need is a few people who know both Python and Panda "alright". I would much rather know that any remake project has a couple people who know the engine by heart, and trust me there are people out there that do.. And also have several good Python programmers. You need not to be both. In any remake's current closed-source state, the developers might be limited in their progress because they only have one or two python people. When programming and debugging, you need as many extra sets of eyes looking on the same problem in order to find the problem faster so you can patch it and work on the next issue.

And again, I am not making any personal attacks against anyone.
(Quick note when I use "You" that is a general you and not referring to any one specific group or person.)
 
Rich Fireskull said:
I know what ye mean but the way you worded that makes it sound like even those that are in the community don't have what it takes (and I know they do). And the thing with open-source projects is, that someone could come and take a look that has played the original POTCO before, and end up fixing some major bug. The whole point is that we cannot stay within the small "POTCO community" bubble that we have trapped ourselves in. Not to pick on anyone, but a question that I saw a lot in the many "interviews" was "Did you play pirates?". Does it matter if the developer did or did not?

It makes me believe that you guys don't want some new person coming in and attempting to work on something because 1. you do not know them, and 2. they didn't play the game you hold so dearly to your piratey hearts. Or perhaps you do want the remake to be worked on, but only by people who played POTCO... That's like putting an ad for a job out that says "Dog walker needed! Requirements: You must have walked a dog before."... What kind of job ad is that? We just cannot expect our small community alone to rebuild a game. You say that the community doesn't have the right programmers? Go outside of the community.

As someone who has and is continuing his study to become a computer programmer and has taken and passed a college level Python class (as well as previous experience doing simple things before that) and gone through decompiled and partially rebuilt versions of the game, yes, you do need a good Python programmer. I know the work involved :) Also, you need someone who understands the Panda3d engine as well, but what you don't need is a few people who know both Python and Panda "alright". I would much rather know that any remake project has a couple people who know the engine by heart, and trust me there are people out there that do.. And also have several good Python programmers. You need not to be both. In any remake's current closed-source state, the developers might be limited in their progress because they only have one or two python people. When programming and debugging, you need as many extra sets of eyes looking on the same problem in order to find the problem faster so you can patch it and work on the next issue.

And again, I am not making any personal attacks against anyone.
(Quick note when I use "You" that is a general you and not referring to any one specific group or person.)
Click to expand...
Well, obviously that is incorrect as most in the TLOPO team are from Toontown. The thing is, major bugs cannot be fixed even if the person has played POTCO unless there is a lot of Python knowledge involved.
 
Rich Fireskull said:
I know what ye mean but the way you worded that makes it sound like even those that are in the community don't have what it takes (and I know they do). And the thing with open-source projects is, that someone could come and take a look that has played the original POTCO before, and end up fixing some major bug. The whole point is that we cannot stay within the small "POTCO community" bubble that we have trapped ourselves in. Not to pick on anyone, but a question that I saw a lot in the many "interviews" was "Did you play pirates?". Does it matter if the developer did or did not?

It makes me believe that you guys don't want some new person coming in and attempting to work on something because 1. you do not know them, and 2. they didn't play the game you hold so dearly to your piratey hearts. Or perhaps you do want the remake to be worked on, but only by people who played POTCO... That's like putting an ad for a job out that says "Dog walker needed! Requirements: You must have walked a dog before."... What kind of job ad is that? We just cannot expect our small community alone to rebuild a game. You say that the community doesn't have the right programmers? Go outside of the community.

As someone who has and is continuing his study to become a computer programmer and has taken and passed a college level Python class (as well as previous experience doing simple things before that) and gone through decompiled and partially rebuilt versions of the game, yes, you do need a good Python programmer. I know the work involved :) Also, you need someone who understands the Panda3d engine as well, but what you don't need is a few people who know both Python and Panda "alright". I would much rather know that any remake project has a couple people who know the engine by heart, and trust me there are people out there that do.. And also have several good Python programmers. You need not to be both. In any remake's current closed-source state, the developers might be limited in their progress because they only have one or two python people. When programming and debugging, you need as many extra sets of eyes looking on the same problem in order to find the problem faster so you can patch it and work on the next issue.

And again, I am not making any personal attacks against anyone.
(Quick note when I use "You" that is a general you and not referring to any one specific group or person.)
Click to expand...
As @Shamus The Brute has said, there are pros and cons to either side. But when I look at it within the POTCO Setting, not Toontown, not Dolphin Emulator, not a GIMP, etc... It just doesn't work in my mind. In all of those settings there is a Demand for that project, yet what POTCO lacks, is a large Demand. Toontown has a HUGE community compared to POTCO. Dolphin Emulator was something that incorporated a vast community across multiple platforms. GIMP, used by so very many people.

The problem we run into is... The Toontown community does not have a demand for POTCO. The Dolphin Emulator's wide range of communities do not have a demand for Toontown nor POTCO.... Do I have to go on??

Making POTCO open source will NOT drive in more knowledgeable developers. And you have already said, the POTCO community lacks knowledgeable developers. I'm not gonna go develop a Toontown remake, I have no interest. Same vise-versa.
 
Last edited:
As Bart, and I said earlier, an open source project wouldn't draw in more devs. If you looked at how things are now, you'll probably end up with a lot of projects that will be the same like Pirate House. A person looking to be a project leader, but has no actual skill. Then they'll go off and say that the source is their own. Also, with the source code in hand, it would make hacking SO much easier.
 
Bart Gunshot said:
As @Shamus The Brute has said, there are pros and cons to either side. But when I look at it within the POTCO Setting, not Toontown, not Dolphin Emulator, not a GIMP, etc... It just doesn't work in my mind. In all of those settings there is a Demand for that project, yet what POTCO lacks, is a large Demand. Toontown has a HUGE community compared to POTCO. Dolphin Emulator was something that incorporated a vast community across multiple platforms. GIMP, used by so very many people.

The problem we run into is... The Toontown community does not have a demand for POTCO. The Dolphin Emulator's wide range of communities do not have a demand for Toontown nor POTCO.... Do I have to go on??

Making POTCO open source will NOT drive in more knowledgeable developers. And you have already said, the POTCO community lacks knowledgeable developers. I'm not gonna go develop a Toontown emulator, I have no interest. Same vise-versa.
Click to expand...

True.. It would help provide a group with another programmer, though. I know Python, but couldn't make it onto a project team because I am not too knowledgeable about the Panda3d Engine and its inner workings. But that means I cannot lend a hand concerning Python development. Any helping hand is a welcomed one :)
 
Rich Fireskull said:
True.. It would help provide a group with another programmer, though. I know Python, but couldn't make it onto a project team because I am not too knowledgeable about the Panda3d Engine and its inner workings. But that means I cannot lend a hand concerning Python development. Any helping hand is a welcomed one :)
Click to expand...
But only if it's a hand that can ACTUALLY help
 
Rich Fireskull said:
It makes me believe that you guys don't want some new person coming in and attempting to work on something because 1. you do not know them, and 2. they didn't play the game you hold so dearly to your piratey hearts. Or perhaps you do want the remake to be worked on, but only by people who played POTCO... That's like putting an ad for a job out that says "Dog walker needed! Requirements: You must have walked a dog before."... What kind of job ad is that? We just cannot expect our small community alone to rebuild a game. You say that the community doesn't have the right programmers? Go outside of the community.
Click to expand...
Rich? Have you ever taken the time to research into things "outside" of the community and the pool of individuals blessed with understanding python appropriately? If you have then you'll also understand that the most of them whom flaunt it openly (i.e., specific ex-TTO players) are those exact same individuals whom lack proper judgment online by doing certain things (or uphold certain associations with other people) where internet drama, DDoS attempts, DOX attacks, Key logger RATS, racial slurs, s. orientation bullying, KFC connotations, Neo-Nazi remarks, autism slandering, etc. is the norm and is widely accepted.

*So, would myself or anyone else for that matter have a legitimate concern to be raised about the maturity of such people? You betcha!
xXWilee999Xx said:
Well, obviously that is incorrect as most in the TLOPO team are from Toontown. The thing is, major bugs cannot be fixed even if the person has played POTCO unless there is a lot of Python knowledge involved.
Click to expand...
Wilee - Have you ever heard of a player named Chris Edgemalley? How about Interactive Glitches? Though I have never agreed with the decisions each has made, I'm beginning to want to tolerate their very presence now.
 
Shamus The Brute said:
Rich? Have you ever taken the time to research into things "outside" of the community and the pool of individuals blessed with understanding python appropriately? If you have then you'll also understand that the most of them whom flaunt it openly (i.e., specific ex-TTO players) are those exact same individuals whom lack proper judgment online by doing certain things (or uphold certain associations with other people) where internet drama, DDoS attempts, DOX attacks, Key logger RATS, racial slurs, s. orientation bullying, KFC connotations, Neo-Nazi remarks, autism slandering, etc. is the norm and is widely accepted.

*So, would myself or anyone else for that matter have a legitimate concern to be raised about the maturity of such people? You betcha!

Wilee - Have you ever heard of a player named Chris Edgemalley? How about Interactive Glitches? Though I have never agreed with the decisions each has made, I'm beginning to want to tolerate their very presence now.
Click to expand...
No, I haven't.
 
Shamus The Brute said:
That's too bad. :mad: Also, this proves a point (that ex-POTCO players did understand python appropriately just as well as any TTO player did).
Click to expand...
Err... I'm going to assume those were hackers that used the Python program, and even if they were smart at it, I doubt they would be able to do at all what we or Toontown Rewritten has done, which is complteely different than injecting exploits. So, point not proven.
 
xXWilee999Xx said:
...So, point not proven.
Click to expand...
Only time will tell, I guess. Same goes for the chance to emulate POTCO open-source.

You mates don't need to agree with it, but any such effort has just as much right to do what it can with the same level of passion as any closed-source project has. Avast! It may not appear to be "practical," but if you think about it...neither is emulating a game made by Disney where the question of legality comes into play.

And that's all I am going to say...
 
I feel if I directly reply to things I'll just get hammered without reason being seen or looked into so I'm just going to go right out the door and separate this from any sort of replies.

I don't quite understand how we are already beginning to write off the idea of Open Source when not one person who is competent and able to, pursued to begin rolling the necessary gears in places and ining the correct ducks up. Its been said various tines throughout this thread that it would be ignorant to assume one thing or another about something happened, for example claiming inevitability. If such is the case then couldn't that same logic be applied to whether or not this would be successful if attempted? If I may point out that in the worst case scenario should such a project of such a nature were to crumble and succumb to what has been mentioned by the critics I believe the only thing lost is the time those people put in and nothing more. And quite honestly even then should there be a little new code no one had yet developed then it would mean that we would only further the agenda even if iit meant the project succumbed to an unfortunate collapse or end. Closed source and Open source in that respect is much different. Wouldn't it be though just as ignorant to say these would fail to say it is inevitable? Wouldn't iit also be ignorant to say that closed source is better if open source hasn't even been attempted? Something I recall many brought up in the beginning of these emulations is that they weren't going to work out because there isn't many interested in developing with the experience, yet there is TLOPO. If such had been said about TLOPO another remake and other emulators wouldn't it be just as ignorant to say there isn't a chance for it to work out for an Open POTCO Project? I don't believe until I see the failure...
 
An open-source development would be the best for any PotCO emulator.

Why?

1. The Pirates Online community is fairly small.

Since our community is smaller than others, we have a smaller pool of people that could help with the development of an emulator. From what we have seen with current and past projects, they either did not have the right people for the job, or did not have enough of the right people. An open-source project would allow people that we did not specifically recruit to help out. That means more people helping on an individual basis. What that also means is that the project could recruit these people to more permanent positions.

2. An MMORPG emulator is an immense task.

This goes hand in hand with the reason above. Since it is such an immense task, we need everybody we can get to help. Our community is small, so having a setup in which more people could potentially help would be extremely beneficial.

3. Transparency.

If we want a project to succeed, we need the developers to be transparent about the development. We need to know if they are telling us the truth, or lying about the project in order to maintain their following. Every project I have seen has not been transparent. At times we did not, and may still not, know how far along they are and how much of the game they have completed. If they have completed anything at all.


Projects do not want to go open-source because they want to be the big heroes of the Pirates Online community. They want to save the day. It's selfishness at its worst, they'd rather sacrifice the future of PotCO while for a short while being the big heroes. Deep down we all know that open-source is the only way to go, look at what we have achieved behind closed doors. Extremely little. How do I know this? Because if a project did have a lot completed, they would show it off. They would show it off to the community in order to get ahead of the others, in order to get the big following.

Everyone needs to look at what we're dealing with here and realize that this is the only way to go. This is the only way that we even have a chance of creating a functioning emulator.


(Going to link back to an earlier thread of mine.)
https://piratesforums.co/threads/unity.10324/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top