The BIG picture_

[Shamus The Brute]

I feel that the multi-tasking @WilyJaymes is doing, the very real (but true) points @OKid had made, and the insight @FlyingRum had made are each tremendously good points about what is actually occurring within this Beta. (Also, I do appreciate those whom had posted earlier too towards the actual topic-of-discussion. My apologies for not ‘tagging’ you as well as I have with these others).

It’s difficult to know what responsibility we each individually have. All I can say is, there is a lingering gut-feeling I do personally have and I truly hate the thought of bringing it up here or even at this particular time. As such, the only thing I can suggest (to counter this feeling) is to encourage everyone to do their own part to contribute to this Beta if ye haven’t purposely done so already. True, loading the actual servers by your presence alone (in-game) is helpful. However, if TLOPO devs are capable at this time to receive further reports, I feel myself aligning further with the old saying that, “you receive what you put forth towards something,” mindset. Could I be wrong and completely off-base with such mindset/frame of mind? Sure! Absolutely.

**I actually need you mates to prove me wrong (I refer back to this feeling of mine again) and so, the challenge has become for myself to encourage pirates via this thread to do that which we know that we_can control. (What too, that would be most beneficial, is for TLOPO to come out and to hint by what means can Beta testers do the most good for TLOPO as of today, Dec. 29th 2018).

Important to a point I made just now and ^ above, can someone share if TTR (Toontown Rewritten) is still stuck in Beta or not?

 

[Misha]

I feel that the multi-tasking @WilyJaymes is doing, the very real (but true) points @OKid had made, and the insight @FlyingRum had made are each tremendously good points about what is actually occurring within this Beta. (Also, I do appreciate those whom had posted earlier too towards the actual topic-of-discussion. My apologies for not ‘tagging’ you as well as I have with these others).

It’s difficult to know what responsibility we each individually have. All I can say is, there is a lingering gut-feeling I do personally have and I truly hate the thought of bringing it up here or even at this particular time. As such, the only thing I can suggest (to counter this feeling) is to encourage everyone to do their own part to contribute to this Beta if ye haven’t purposely done so already. True, loading the actual servers by your presence alone (in-game) is helpful. However, if TLOPO devs are capable at this time to receive further reports, I feel myself aligning further with the old saying that, “you receive what you put forth towards something,” mindset. Could I be wrong and completely off-base with such mindset/frame of mind? Sure! Absolutely.

**I actually need you mates to prove me wrong (I refer back to this feeling of mine again) and so, the challenge has become for myself to encourage pirates via this thread to do that which we know that we_can control. (What too, that would be most beneficial, is for TLOPO to come out and to hint by what means can Beta testers do the most good for TLOPO as of today, Dec. 29th 2018).

Important to a point I made just now and ^ above, can someone share if TTR (Toontown Rewritten) is still stuck in Beta or not?

Though I haven't played in a couple months time, to my knowledge TTR is still in it's Open Beta stage.

 

[squintz]

Reality is even random players that don't report anything do help beta test a game because they help load the system. I remember being in a company way back in the day of mainframes when we create a really cool GUI for the mainframe that made the experience Windows like before Windows even existed... many man years of programming went into it and the testing was done with very limited number of testers... only when it was opened up to a lot of users did we realize that it was just too much of a CPU hog and once you got more than 20 people using at the same time it would grind to a halt or crash... some problems will not show up with only a few users so having a lot on here even if they are just playing can help the people actually looking for problems find those problems.

I fully agree, everything is a test. Even logging on.

 

[squintz]

Problems that the beta currently face are not something that needs to be discovered. 1/4th of passives don't work like they're supposed to, enemy Ai is laggier than it used to be. The rebuilt game client cannot handle as good of textures at as good of a frame rate as the older client used to, they're even considering going to 64-Bit because they can't get the optimization in 32-Bit to be as good as it was with the old 32-bit client which I don't understand....
The extremely poor graphical optimization, which even now has sacrificed a huge amount of graphics quality while not gaining much performance. Every pirate looks like:

Except absolutely no performance because of this change. There is clearly a deep core engine or graphics pipeline issue if I have a 4790k at 4.2Ghz and a GTX 1070 and I am struggling to maintain 12 FPS in things as simple as a invasion or sea fight, or even just an area with more than 3 players in it doing stuff at once.

I don't see how optimization can be this bad, but all I do know is that they are aware of it, so the problems in Beta aren't exactly a mystery they just aren't being fixed anytime soon, that is why players are mostly passing the time and doing their own thing instead of 'hunting out problems'

Could it be that Microsquat has stopped playing well with openGL on purpose and nothing a openGL game can do to fix that?
Aren't we just trying to run openGL is emulation mode in windows 7,8 and 10 now?

 

[squintz]

Problems that the beta currently face are not something that needs to be discovered. 1/4th of passives don't work like they're supposed to, enemy Ai is laggier than it used to be. The rebuilt game client cannot handle as good of textures at as good of a frame rate as the older client used to, they're even considering going to 64-Bit because they can't get the optimization in 32-Bit to be as good as it was with the old 32-bit client which I don't understand....
The extremely poor graphical optimization, which even now has sacrificed a huge amount of graphics quality while not gaining much performance. Every pirate looks like:

Except absolutely no performance because of this change. There is clearly a deep core engine or graphics pipeline issue if I have a 4790k at 4.2Ghz and a GTX 1070 and I am struggling to maintain 12 FPS in things as simple as a invasion or sea fight, or even just an area with more than 3 players in it doing stuff at once.

I don't see how optimization can be this bad, but all I do know is that they are aware of it, so the problems in Beta aren't exactly a mystery they just aren't being fixed anytime soon, that is why players are mostly passing the time and doing their own thing instead of 'hunting out problems'

This is off toontowns website. Thing is I believe everyone has updated their drivers many times. My contention has always been, if I'm adding a new 3rd party program to my system, I should not have to change and update everything on my system to accommodate that 3rd party program. i get the new driver gig, but reinstalling windows? Changing bios? Never.
Some Intel HD Graphics cards may experience issues rendering the game's graphics properly due to poor OpenGL support. If you experience any visual issues, try downloading the latest version of your graphics card's driver or contact Intel for help.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

Though I haven't played in a couple months time, to my knowledge TTR is still in it's Open Beta stage.

Thank you. Hmmm...

Yeah, not good.

everything is a test. Even logging on.

Just throwing this out there: Life is a test! (Because this is so, those whom choose to ‘actively’ participate [as opposed to just going through the motions] gain the most satisfaction from the reward and final grade).

 

[FlyingRum]

Could it be that Microsquat has stopped playing well with openGL on purpose and nothing a OpenGL game can do to fix that?
Aren't we just trying to run openGL is emulation mode in windows 7,8 and 10 now?

Panda-3D supports 2 pipelines and one is faster while the other is more robust. The original unencrypted rebuilt client runs fine with OpenGL on Windows 10
The original client ran better on OpenGL than it did on DirectX. But back in the day both worked fine. But TLOPO has went with OpenGL and neglected supporting and optimizing DirectX.

The real FPS killer for TLOPO isn't anything top level related to OpenGL but moreso the core client codebase, the way world entities and/or entity rigs are parsed in said codebase, or some in-client encryption/protection system slowing performance down by having to unencrypt, and re-encrypt assets realtime to keep the client somewhat 'protected' whereas original POTCO did not have this. OpenGL is the faster graphics pipeline at the end of the day, but when you have custom in-house compilers for the client, and not original codebase, you will run into these performance problems and won't be able to improve much upon them without identifying what is really introducing so many frame-skips, drag downs, and etc in your client. My actual concern is that not much progress is being made in this department at all.

 

[squintz]

Panda-3D supports 2 pipelines and one is faster while the other is more robust. The original unencrypted rebuilt client runs fine with OpenGL on Windows 10
The original client ran better on OpenGL than it did on DirectX. But back in the day both worked fine. But TLOPO has went with OpenGL and neglected supporting and optimizing DirectX.

The real FPS killer for TLOPO isn't anything top level related to OpenGL but moreso the core client codebase, the way world entities and/or entity rigs are parsed in said codebase, or some in-client encryption/protection system slowing performance down by having to unencrypt, and re-encrypt assets realtime to keep the client somewhat 'protected' whereas original POTCO did not have this. OpenGL is the faster graphics pipeline at the end of the day, but when you have custom in-house compilers for the client, and not original codebase, you will run into these performance problems and won't be able to improve much upon them without identifying what is really introducing so many frame-skips, drag downs, and etc in your client. My actual concern is that not much progress is being made in this department at all.

Terrific post and points. Just a thought, if protection you mention falls under the cheat realm? Could arrmor have introduced more drag on the game than what was there before? Is there any way to see a time line, well, in our game play experience that is from around the time of the new cheat engine?
Do you also feel going to 64bit won't really 'speed' up the game?

 

[FlyingRum]

Terrific post and points. Just a thought, if protection you mention falls under the cheat realm? Could arrmor have introduced more drag on the game than what was there before? Is there any way to see a time line, well, in our game play experience that is from around the time of the new cheat engine?
Do you also feel going to 64bit won't really 'speed' up the game?

1. Arrrmor is server side protection for signing onto accounts and has nothing to do with ingame asset and model loading animation playing and such. So no has no effect
2. Not sure if TLOPO still uses Nirai or a custom version of it, but having all the core client functionality hidden behind a compressed, guarded, encrypted hull/shell around it, and then having to have the game pull from that can possibly cause unforseen performance issues or memory leaks or just things taking longer or more intensive than they need to be
3. If the problem is the codebase of the client and how its guarded and if its inefficient then moving over to 64Bit will absolutely not help things in the slightest.
4. The only software that gains a performance boost from being 64 bit vs 32 bit are programs in which are designed by default to be 64 bit to take full advantage of the benefits. Most software companies make a 32bit and 64bit version of their software so that one can reap the benefits and one can be compatible from 32bit based machines. The problem is TLOPO has always been 32bit since its launch and will not be able to truly reap the benefits. They would get DEP and KPP + mandatory digitally signed drivers as far as security but the only benefit it really gives TLOPO is a larger memory pool, which if your game is correctly optimized and doesn't use a crazy amount of memory to stay stable then it won't need this anyway.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

Bad joke from the memoir pages of a Brute:

• Q: What’s the difference between Super Bowl 53 players and TLOPO’s beta testers?
• A: Super Bowl 53 witnessed players coming together (in unison) towards the end goal...no matter how boring!

The legacy with “this” particular remake. It will only be as good as the commitment level combined of all BETA testers...so mark my words.

 

[Kat Five Knives]

As long as dark archive wants more weapons that’s all tlopo will see. It’s getting old.

This statement is not accurate. The members of the DA do not dictate the direction of the game or the developer's decisions. We have all kinds of people in our guild, not just people who enjoy finding weapons. Personally, I prefer finding rare and bright clothing and the social aspect of the game. Some of us prefer to SVS or do materials runs. It's true we do have our fair share of looters but they have no more influence over the game than the fans here at the forums and the wants and desires of the community as expressed on the forums and on the TLOPO site.

I do hope that players think of themselves as testers, because that's what we are doing. There's no reason why we can't have fun in the process. I appreciate everything you are doing to help improve the game. I can't begin to explain or guess as to the developers' time table for fixing errors and/or developing new content. But that's not my job. I'm just glad to have the game and many of my friends back.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

I would like to warn that with the singling-out (on this thread) of any guild or person believed to be the cause of “how” the game is being developed will in-turn receive a report initiated by me for said post to be removed. It’s just silly to think that way first of all because there is no real way to prove it. *Besides, for those pirates throwing said accusations around are you really “that” busy looking at others rather than judging your own (BETA) duties and responsibilities? Enough!

While although a community effort, this BETA phase of testing is dependent upon individuals and individual efforts. At the end of the day, we ONLY have ourselves to blame if the appropriate testing of TLOPO’s beta unfortunately comes up short. Don’t believe me? *5 years from now I predict you will!

Hey pirate? Do you really want Shamus The Brute (on the forums) to eventually prove ye wrong?

 

[Mocha Joe]

I don't get to play much, so I don't spend a lot of time hunting for glitches. I haven't really been vigilant in reporting minor bugs, etc. I have been able to participate in some Admin-led stress tests and other beta-centric events.

On the other hand, I don't complain much about the state of the game. I know most of the lag and d/c problems I encounter are due to my internet connection. I'm happy to have TLOPO to play on my days off.

 

[Driftarr]

I'm late to this discussion but it seems it's still going. I read through most of the conversation, but maybe I'll be repeating some things that were already said. Firstly, thanks Shamus for bringing up this point!

I myself in recent months, have fallen out of the mindset of Beta testing. I think for me, personally this is due to my reading/misreading of the development to this point. At the start and for a good while in, I reported just about every little thing I found, glitches, weapons or abilities not functioning properly, etc. But I feel like these "little things" are things that have been pushed to the wayside in favor of new content. And I know "the new development team is separated in department from that of Potco content team" but from the outside, it seems that the main priority/focus of Tlopo has been on the new stuff, maybe in an attempt to keep things fresh, to keep the numbers up.

Either way, I am going to try to rekindle that beta-testing-mentally in myself. Because I do know that the oTlpo team does listen and take our feedback, and ultimately they care deeply about this game and community, that's why they do what they do. Maybe it's just not always done in the manner that some of us would want it to be done all the time, but that's impossible to accomplish. I think it's just easy to lose sight of that sometimes.

 

[Ed plunderphoenix]

I'm late to this discussion but it seems it's still going. I read through most of the conversation, but maybe I'll be repeating some things that were already said. Firstly, thanks Shamus for bringing up this point!

I myself in recent months, have fallen out of the mindset of Beta testing. I think for me, personally this is due to my reading/misreading of the development to this point. At the start and for a good while in, I reported just about every little thing I found, glitches, weapons or abilities not functioning properly, etc. But I feel like these "little things" are things that have been pushed to the wayside in favor of new content. And I know "the new development team is separated in department from that of Potco content team" but from the outside, it seems that the main priority/focus of Tlopo has been on the new stuff, maybe in an attempt to keep things fresh, to keep the numbers up.

Either way, I am going to try to rekindle that beta-testing-mentally in myself. Because I do know that the oTlpo team does listen and take our feedback, and ultimately they care deeply about this game and community, that's why they do what they do. Maybe it's just not always done in the manner that some of us would want it to be done all the time, but that's impossible to accomplish. I think it's just easy to lose sight of that sometimes.

Amen to that. I almost commented something similar earlier. Its quite easy to loose track and want more from the game (as in new content). Imo by far the best thing to do is to try and make more friends and keep the game fresh. Even since I've been playing, the game has come a long way. Everyone plays a part in that.

 

[Jim Hexskull]

I think you can do both honestly. You can play the game to be playing and also be focused on beta. I don't go hunting bugs or issues, but I'm also sure to report all that I find. I think the fact that we are able to play for the sake of playing encourages us to focus on the beta, because the game will get better as we report things.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

I don't get to play much, so I don't spend a lot of time hunting for glitches. I haven't really been vigilant in reporting minor bugs, etc. I have been able to participate in some Admin-led stress tests and other beta-centric events.

On the other hand, I don't complain much about the state of the game...

Thank you for your honesty and yourself being transparent.

...I myself in recent months, have fallen out of the mindset of Beta testing. I think for me, personally this is due to my reading/misreading of the development to this point. At the start and for a good while in, I reported just about every little thing I found, glitches, weapons or abilities not functioning properly, etc. But I feel like these "little things" are things that have been pushed to the wayside in favor of new content...

Either way, I am going to try to rekindle that beta-testing-mentally in myself....

...I think it's just easy to lose sight of that sometimes.

Thank you kindly too, mate, for sharing and also for acknowledging that it *is* quite easy to lose sight of (beta testing) responsibilities given the introduction of new content.

*It’s quite a tricky balance, I’m sure, for TLOPO to...balance.

Amen to that. I almost commented something similar earlier. Its quite easy to loose track and want more from the game (as in new content)...

It is only human to feel this way. Mostly because, I feel, it’s a human condition and subsequent “flaw” that we arrr NEVER really content with what we have. Our satisfaction towards something is fairly short-lived. Therefore, if BETA is ever going to end for TLOPO...both their team as a whole *and* us pirates (as players) are going to have to fight against the tendency to simply play for the sake of playing versus playing to test!!! It’s the exact opposite of what we want to do but it’s certainly do-able.

I think you can do both honestly. You can play the game to be playing and also be focused on beta. I don't go hunting bugs or issues, but I'm also sure to report all that I find. I think the fact that we are able to play for the sake of playing encourages us to focus on the beta, because the game will get better as we report things.

But my friend...wouldn’t you agree it’s becoming disproportional? All one has to do is review the forums “recent activity” each day to understand that the lust for LOOT, LEGENDARIES, BRIGHTS, or GARB are quickly becoming a reflection to the focus most pirates playing TLOPO’s Beta do keep. Perhaps I am overly assuming this but, one cannot deny the way the forums itself is swaying towards this direction.

When you begin to see things happening from afar, it’s imperative to voice and to bring attention to this because truthfully...it’s just too easy of a trap to fall in! (I’ve fallen into that trap too before and in hindsight, playing POTCO was so addicting that it did cost me things in real life [if I were to be completely honest with everyone, myself])!

 

[DarkRose]

Thank you for your honesty and yourself being transparent.
Thank you kindly too, mate, for sharing and also for acknowledging that it *is* quite easy to lose sight of (beta testing) responsibilities given the introduction of new content.

*It’s quite a tricky balance, I’m sure, for TLOPO to...balance.
It is only human to feel this way. Mostly because, I feel, it’s a human condition and subsequent “flaw” that we arrr NEVER really content with what we have. Our satisfaction towards something is fairly short-lived. Therefore, if BETA is ever going to end for TLOPO...both their team as a whole *and* us pirates (as players) are going to have to fight against the tendency to simply play for the sake of playing versus playing to test!!! It’s the exact opposite of what we want to do but it’s certainly do-able.

But my friend...wouldn’t you agree it’s becoming disproportional? All one has to do is review the forums “recent activity” each day to understand that the lust for LOOT, LEGENDARIES, BRIGHTS, or GARB are quickly becoming a reflection to the focus most pirates playing TLOPO’s Beta do keep. Perhaps I am overly assuming this but, one cannot deny the way the forums itself is swaying towards this direction.

When you begin to see things happening from afar, it’s imperative to voice and to bring attention to this because truthfully...it’s just too easy of a trap to fall in! (I’ve fallen into that trap too before and in hindsight, playing POTCO was so addicting that it did cost me things in real life [if I were to be completely honest with everyone, myself])!

I am little confused, Do you actually play now too, or just come to the forums? I personally think this post is kinda of pointless.. sorry but as most of you know.. i dont just go with what others "want to hear" if I dont believe in it myself. I, just like many others have said, did report all and any bugs we come across. But why would we constantly keep reporting the same bug everyday??? If it was something new or something we didnt think the devs know about, then i am sure that person would report it. You seem to forget there is a way to report bugs in game..Not everyone wants to run to the forums and start a thread bout every bug. That would be boring amount of post to sort through tbh. So if you are basing this assumption just on what you see on the forums then I feel you are not looking at the whole picture. There are other ways to inform the devs. Usually when I had seen a post on here bout a certain bug.. most tell them to report to support anyways.

The reason you see lots of posts, imo, bout brights, weapons etc... is cause that is all we have as an end game. Nothing else to really post about. If everyone stop making these posts.. your forum would be dead.

I, agree with @Bart Gunshot, I too was excited at first to play this game, but at some point it is extremely boring to only be able to lvl up pirates or loot 5 hours a day in order to get anything worth your time. For that reason, I personally find myself not logging on as much or not on as long. This is Beta, they know the bugs and issues. They will be fixed when they can.

P.S.
Would also like to verify, that DA does not seem to influence what goes on. I had/have a noob in there and never witness this happening. Also, wasnt ER around just as long? Seems to to me, but i could be wrong lol.

 

[Shamus The Brute]

@DarkRose - Hey there. I do appreciate the above ^ response. Thank ye

Rather than respond to what you ask (via lengthy paragraphs) I would like to do so by bulleting the below. I hope this may help. If not, you and others are free to question these points I do make.

• I currently do not play “any” POTCO remake
• I am asking, via this thread, for pirates to become more proactive towards TLOPO’s Beta phase
• I am asking for new, not old, bugs/glitches to be found then reported
• I view forums postings, in general, as a gauge/benchmark as to what is trending or important within the community (deemed as ‘important’)
• I admit to you and everyone I could be wrong (I am not here to say I am ‘always’ right)
• Despite the above ^ I do feel compelled to pursue this “hunch”
• I have a very specific, unique theory which needs to be proved wrong
• This thread’s purpose is twofold for myself towards each cause
• I relish in the fact of seeing the absolute *best* come forth from this pirate of a community where the letdowns of POTCO survive no more
• I feel the above ^ cannot be achieved if personal gain and focus (alone) evolves to become the driving factor

 

[Charles Warmonk]

As someone who's contributed a countless amount of hours to testing and reporting bugs such as...

• Unlimited Potions
• Unlimited Broadsides
• Unlimited Combo
  
• Unlimited Health Regeneration
  
• Unlimited Pull Fish / Sink Lure
• Triple Explosive Shot
• Double Sink Sailing Glitch
• Critical Grenades
• Forcing Enemies in Non-Aggro Mode
• Weapon testing for countless of skills
• Cursed Weapons dropping in incorrect places
• Explaining why sailing loot is acting the way it is
• Ability to kill "Jack the Monkey"
• And countless of effects not working correctly [Such as Phantom Spirit potion not expiring when you attack]

And the list goes on...

I would say the biggest struggle the team is having at the current time is the fact the game is very VERY centered around looting. I am sure the development team is trying to not "change" but more so "Shift" this mindset to a more engaging atmosphere. [Which is what they tried doing with boss loot] - This as we know... worked for a short while and still was a great way for the community to actively TEST and FIND if bosses' in fact dropped legendary. However, people quickly became discouraged and dishearten to find the rates were to LOW.

They quickly fixed this issue but came across another... Sailing loot was now VASTLY broken [In both the good & bad way] So we tested that for them, and still test it for them to this day but have seen some changes... but not a real solution fix. - We got patches here and there, but nothing that really made a massive difference on the issue.

Then we go event such as Hallowed Woods & Moodrocks, theses are both great inclusions into the game, but doesn't really encourage us to "TEST" anything... Which brings me to my point that I want to respectfully suggest of the team.

I hope I speak for the majority... when I ask the team [In news letters OR forums] HINT/ASK publicly for the community to OPENLY TEST a certain part of the game. The community is always scattered be it looting boss, sailing, or be it leveling alts repetitively. I would love to see the team become a more open person(s) to the community's population and connect with us more in terms of engaging us for events/testing.

I know how to test.... and I love doing it to send feedback to the team for the betterment of the community's future. However, even I am lacking a direction in WERE I should be looking and WHAT I should be testing...

The goal of the team is currently UNKNOWN to me and I am sure it is UNKNOWN to the community, I really hope this would change in the future.

However, I will say this... I am not a developer, Moderator, TLOPO Staff member or "Official tester". I am just a Wiki Admin and past POTCO pirate like many of our community members, and I have no insight or experience on running a project like this one. So nothing I say is "FACT" or "Unquestionable". I entrust the developers are doing their very best and at the WORST are just not ABLE to share with us their plans without simply spoiling all the surprises they may have planned for us.

However, to summarize what I meant above... I just want the team to give us Beta Tester a more "Upfront" THING to test... I hope this feedback helps.