Discussion Copperheads

[Morzan]

A great upgrade but...why do I feel like they're a hint overpowered?

On cannon the range of an explosive is short, very short, so why is a Copperhead's explosive broadsides able to fly off into the stratosphere? Like, should there be a range limit for them?

I was gunning for a public Skull and Bones ship, it was fully upgraded with full health and armor, and it got one-shotted in a single broadside like nothing despite being a fair distance apart. And the Skull and Bones possess the second strongest hull in the game. Should the explosive damage in a Copperhead's broads receive a nerf of some kind?

 

[Sky Kiwi]

Don't use current SvS strengths as a reference point. The devs fixed the "too much damage reduction", but now there's not enough. Player ships in SvS are not meant to be able to be sunk by a single broadside from anything. They never were in POTCO.

As for the actual strength of Copperhead's broadsides (265% average damage, by the way. See the link in my signature for more info) - even with the added firepower of explosive broadsides, a strong crew will still do significantly more damage than the broadsides can.

Though I do agree Skull and Bones is lackluster to Copperhead, it's also lackluster to Storm Chaser. If we're going to change any of the hulls, I say buff the weak ones (again, see my sig), don't nerf the strong ones.

 

[Morzan]

Don't use current SvS strengths as a reference point. The devs fixed the "too much damage reduction", but now there's not enough. Player ships in SvS are not meant to be able to be sunk by a single broadside from anything. They never were in POTCO.

So right now they're stronger in svs than they're meant to be? They're stronger than in potco? This is a confirmed bug? It would make sense if it is a bug, but if it's not...it definitely deserves a nerf in svs.

 

[Sky Kiwi]

So right now they're stronger in svs than they're meant to be? They're stronger than in potco?

Not just copperhead - EVERYTHING deals more damage than it should, I believe. See this post of mine in another thread:

Player ships were definitely stronger in SvS than they were on open ocean. They should not be as weak as regular NPC ships. Specifically, player ships took great damage reduction while they still had armour, but once the armour was gone they would take damage like any normal ship.

Notice on this video from 2011, at the time stamp (2:04) the guy is firing thunderbolts at a War Sloop. One shot (while the enemy ship has armour) does 229 damage, then the next shot (at an unarmoured spot) does 1480. Those are not normal numbers. That's more than 50% damage reduction on top of the already existing 50% reduction from armour.

Edit: Looks like the timestamp doesn't work when embedded. you can just go to this link, or go to the time (2m 4s) manually.

It's surprisingly hard to find SvS videos that have what I want. They're all compilations of sinking enemy ships, which means the numbers we see are basically always armourless. And a lot of them are terrible quality. Wow we had so few good recorders back then.

Think about it: if your ship was supposed to be as weak as normal enemy ships, a War Galleon could be sunk by a single Open Fire broadside from a non-upgraded ship. But anyone who played SvS in POTCO knows your ship could definitely survive multiple broadsides.

 

[Deicide]

Yeah, it's not just limited to Copperheads is the thing. Explosive broadsides on Ships of the Line are also pretty overpowered, in the sense that even my Cargo III War Frigate still gets sunk in one hit from if I accidentally take an explosive broadside (typically due to other ships or players being in the way). I feel like even though Sky Kiwi has a point in that nerfing the strong hulls and what not might not be the best idea, explosive broadsides are probably just a bit too powerful. Like it would be great if it would like not do more than 10k damage per broadside (not sure if there is a way to adjust explosive damage on broadside and leave cannon ammo alone, I'm sure there is) so that you're at least alive with a sliver of health and can run away. The amount of full mat runs that have been stolen from me because I got hit by an explosive broadside while retreating has gotten rather ridiculous.

 

[Sky Kiwi]

Yeah, it's not just limited to Copperheads is the thing. Explosive broadsides on Ships of the Line are also pretty overpowered, in the sense that even my Cargo III War Frigate still gets sunk in one hit from if I accidentally take an explosive broadside (typically due to other ships or players being in the way). I feel like even though Sky Kiwi has a point in that nerfing the strong hulls and what not might not be the best idea, explosive broadsides are probably just a bit too powerful. Like it would be great if it would like not do more than 10k damage per broadside (not sure if there is a way to adjust explosive damage on broadside and leave cannon ammo alone, I'm sure there is) so that you're at least alive with a sliver of health and can run away. The amount of full mat runs that have been stolen from me because I got hit by an explosive broadside while retreating has gotten rather ridiculous.

Broadside damage and deck-cannon damage are the same, so it's likely you can't change one without changing the other unless you write in extra code (ie can't just change a number).

As for enemy ships explosive broadsides, they've always been that way, and were meant to be that way. When you face the big bad ships of the open sea (the high level ones) you're expected to be a good captain, or you and your ship will perish. The first step to being a good captain is learning to not get hit at all.

I've been seeing this bizarre attitude in TLOPO where captains seem to believe that you can just tank any damage and let the crew repair. I don't understand it. It's not hard to avoid getting hit at all. Corsairs, Juggernauts and Cerberus existed even before the repair system existed, and they could all one-hit your ship from full health! And, back then, enemy ship broadsides actually locked on!

Cargo replacement and materials made sailing runs last a lot longer, so we got a repair system to compensate for the occasional stray deck shot that lands on our ship, or a broadside that barely scrapes us. Way back when, from the very beginning to the end of POTCO, the ideal and most popular strategy (among experienced captains) was to dodge, not tank. If you're getting hit by Battle Royale and sinking in one broadside, it's not because Royale is too powerful, it's because you messed up (or, admittedly, because the server froze or she teleported in some weird way - but that's a TLOPO beta bug thing).

 

[nowisdmoment]

Broadside damage and deck-cannon damage are the same, so it's likely you can't change one without changing the other unless you write in extra code (ie can't just change a number).

As for enemy ships explosive broadsides, they've always been that way, and were meant to be that way. When you face the big bad ships of the open sea (the high level ones) you're expected to be a good captain, or you and your ship will perish. The first step to being a good captain is learning to not get hit at all.

I've been seeing this bizarre attitude in TLOPO where captains seem to believe that you can just tank any damage and let the crew repair. I don't understand it. It's not hard to avoid getting hit at all. Corsairs, Juggernauts and Cerberus existed even before the repair system existed, and they could all one-hit your ship from full health! And, back then, enemy ship broadsides actually locked on!

Cargo replacement and materials made sailing runs last a lot longer, so we got a repair system to compensate for the occasional stray deck shot that lands on our ship, or a broadside that barely scrapes us. Way back when, from the very beginning to the end of POTCO, the ideal and most popular strategy (among experienced captains) was to dodge, not tank. If you're getting hit by Battle Royale and sinking in one broadside, it's not because Royale is too powerful, it's because you messed up (or, admittedly, because the server froze or she teleported in some weird way - but that's a TLOPO beta bug thing).

I remember those days... I played POTCO when it first came out but stopped before the additions of ship upgrades, so I have that "Don't get hit" attitude when I'm sailing. The reason why people go all rambo with ships now is because sailing is too easy. I honestly wish enemy ships locked on again. With the addition of ship upgrades and repairs, it only makes sense to add that level of challenge back in. And for those complaining about explosive broadsides, I admit they are pretty darn OP considering range and all. But there's strategies that allow you to solo-sink Battle Royales without taking a hit.... Ever. Just generally avoid Corsairs and Juggernuats, but if you want to take them on, make sure you have a big crew. The devs should also add back in mast holes, and dynamic fire for that classic POTCO touch for the OG players.

 

[Hernandez]

I remember those days... I played POTCO when it first came out but stopped before the additions of ship upgrades, so I have that "Don't get hit" attitude when I'm sailing. The reason why people go all rambo with ships now is because sailing is too easy. I honestly wish enemy ships locked on again. With the addition of ship upgrades and repairs, it only makes sense to add that level of challenge back in. And for those complaining about explosive broadsides, I admit they are pretty darn OP considering range and all. But there's strategies that allow you to solo-sink Battle Royales without taking a hit.... Ever. Just generally avoid Corsairs and Juggernuats, but if you want to take them on, make sure you have a big crew. The devs should also add back in mast holes, and dynamic fire for that classic POTCO touch for the OG players.

Maybe first fix broadside aiming to not miss 50% of the time when you definitely locked on the enemy. Then think about re adding that the enemy can lock onto you again.

 

[nowisdmoment]

Maybe first fix broadside aiming to not miss 50% of the time when you definitely locked on the enemy. Then think about re adding that the enemy can lock onto you again.

Or how about manually locking onto enemies? I said this in another post, and I'll say it here too. Auto aim sometimes can get finicky and untrustworthy at times. Would be very helpful to have some Assasins Creed 4: Black Flag ship aiming mechanics so that we don't have to rely completely on the auto aim. Lastly, I wouldn't say 50% of the time, lol it's more like 25 if you know what you're doing. Just gotta time it mate. Besides that, the only time my broadsides miss is if a hunter zooms away from them (chasing another player) or it shoots like some sort of crumb trail behind my ship (unexplainable, I really have no words for when that happens).

 

[Hernandez]

Or how about manually locking onto enemies? I said this in another post, and I'll say it here too. Auto aim sometimes can get finicky and untrustworthy at times. Would be very helpful to have some Assasins Creed 4: Black Flag ship aiming mechanics so that we don't have to rely completely on the auto aim. Lastly, I wouldn't say 50% of the time, lol it's more like 25 if you know what you're doing. Just gotta time it mate. Besides that, the only time my broadsides miss is if a hunter zooms away from them (chasing another player) or it shoots like some sort of crumb trail behind my ship (unexplainable, I really have no words for when that happens).

I time it lad. And the auto aiming has been a thing even in the Akella pirate sims. Also does it in Sid Meiers Pirates. Black flag aiming could work but with the bouts of lag it's finicky. Potco doesn't have the mechanics to support it either and could only be implemented optionally later down the line. Rather have a proper working auto aim than a still wonky auto aim and a wonky manual aim.

On the crumb trails is because of the sudden speed jolts of the enemy ships who sometimes teleport to get behind someone else's ship. So the auto aim calculates where the ship would be and shoots there.

 

[nowisdmoment]

I time it lad. And the auto aiming has been a thing even in the Akella pirate sims. Also does it in Sid Meiers Pirates. Black flag aiming could work but with the bouts of lag it's finicky. Potco doesn't have the mechanics to support it either and could only be implemented optionally later down the line. Rather have a proper working auto aim than a still wonky auto aim and a wonky manual aim.

On the crumb trails is because of the sudden speed jolts of the enemy ships who sometimes teleport to get behind someone else's ship. So the auto aim calculates where the ship would be and shoots there.

Um ok but my only problem is that how come it's not possible to have both working auto aim and working manual aim? It seems like you're just saying we can't have both... Because of the mechanics in the game? Overtime I'm sure that they could have both features working perfectly, I mean like a manual aim is as easy as it gets. I really like Black Flag's because it's an arching system, and it accounts for waves and distance. Our ships are unrealistically raised from the sea level a bit (rudder is not even in fully in the water lol) so waves don't really effect them. As for distance and direction, maybe a scrolling mechanic for the mouse? Or click and drag? Just spewing out ideas here. I just don't trust auto aim. I have a good mouse and I wanna use it.

 

[Melly]

On the crumb trails is because of the sudden speed jolts of the enemy ships who sometimes teleport to get behind someone else's ship. So the auto aim calculates where the ship would be and shoots there.

Exactly, except it's not just when they zoom after someone else's ship. It's also when they are targeting you, fall behind a bit and then do that short burst of speed to overtake you. The reaction time between hitting the button and your cannonballs shooting out means if they remained at that speed, they'd be somewhere far from where they actually stop.

 

[Hernandez]

Exactly, except it's not just when they zoom after someone else's ship. It's also when they are targeting you, fall behind a bit and then do that short burst of speed to overtake you. The reaction time between hitting the button and your cannonballs shooting out means if they remained at that speed, they'd be somewhere far from where they actually stop.

They should adjust the speed script of the hunters and warships to be at a fixed speed like the regular ships instead of this warp speed.

 

[Sky Kiwi]

Don't use current SvS strengths as a reference point. The devs fixed the "too much damage reduction", but now there's not enough. Player ships in SvS are not meant to be able to be sunk by a single broadside from anything. They never were in POTCO.

As for the actual strength of Copperhead's broadsides (265% average damage, by the way. See the link in my signature for more info) - even with the added firepower of explosive broadsides, a strong crew will still do significantly more damage than the broadsides can.

Though I do agree Skull and Bones is lackluster to Copperhead, it's also lackluster to Storm Chaser. If we're going to change any of the hulls, I say buff the weak ones (again, see my sig), don't nerf the strong ones.

I'm going to add to this statement with the fact that back in POTCO you needed to hit a light sloop with six fury rounds to sink it. The best evidence I can find of this (it's hard finding good evidence of anything in original POTCO) is this excerpt from a guide written on the POTCO wiki about SvS.

If you know me and my over the top calculations of cannonball damage values (see my signature if you don't), you'll know that six fury rounds are equal to one explosive, or twelve round shots (fury does 2x round shot damage, explosive does 12x). That means, back in POTCO, it took an entire base War Galleon/Brig broadside or the full damage from one explosive (hint: first explosive would do less than half damage because armour + damage reduction, so it actually took two explosives to sink one) to sink a light sloop. Pretty darn sure War Frigates could take a lot more damage than light sloops. A War Brig firing two explosives in one broadside (that's good luck, btw) would be the equivalent to firing 2.83 normal broadsides (assuming all shots hit). If your War Frigate is getting sunk by that single broadside, that means your War Frigate can't even take as much damage as 3 POTCO light sloops. NON-UPGRADED light sloops! That's pretty wrong.

Note: This math isn't precise. Don't forget in SvS there's supposed to be an additional damage reduction on top of the existing half-damage from armour a la POTCO. But as all cannonballs are multiples of each other the variation won't be cosmic, it'll just depend on how many cannonballs it takes to break the opponent's armour before doing full damage with each type.