new balance changes discussion

Misha said:
There was no intention to increase self-damage with the exception of Maelstrom Charges. This will be looked at.



'Worthless' is a strong word for comparing a weapon that's meant to hit one target versus one that hits a huge area. Granted, it's being worked on still, but that's not a fair comparison to either weapon.

EDIT

Let me make sure to specify that these are not 100% permanent. The grenade changes are STILL being worked on. They will most likely not remain as they are in the future.
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Doesn't matter if it's 1 target vs aoe, it's a GRENADE. Also Blunderbuss is aoe just an fyi.
 
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Truecrash said:
Hey there! Just dropping by to help explain a few things.



So, this is actually really hard to manage. The damage for DoTs are shared by both enemies and players, which means we can't really tweak these to be higher without impacting other areas of the game. The compromise was making each rank increase the duration of the DoT, rather than the damage per tick. That being said, Venom Strike at rank 3 does about ~1,000 damage in total, so it's definitely nothing to laugh at in an extended fight.

We'll be looking into a fix for this in the future, though.



We'll definitely be looking more at Bloodfire soon!



Hmm... that's weird. I'll check these out as soon as I can, thanks for letting us know!



Staff was actually buffed! Every skill was buffed up to be on par with flaming skull in terms of desirability. Desolation as it is can clear out most non-boss enemies in the game in one hit at rank 5, so I'd consider checking that out when you get a chance. Even blast has its uses now, as a finishing move!

Thanks for the feedback, it helps us a lot to see discussions about the current game balance. Hope you're enjoying the update!
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You and your team doing Staff justice. THANK YOU SO MUCH!
 
Roger-Daniel said:
@Truecrash @Misha nade changes are great, thanks for getting this out so quickly :thumbsup:
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The balance is massively better. However, in the notes it said "..and not apply self-damage effects if the player hits themselves to prevent the player from accidentally one-shotting themself." I skimmed over the discussion about the change in the test discord, and ive found some irregularities which have been confusing me a bit. I'm just gonna unofficially call the -1650 damage you automatically get from maelstrom a "smite" from now on since thats easier tbh
direct hit non instakill
nondirect hit instakill
nondirect hit non instakill
multiple non instakill
multiple instakill
Im so very confused now lol. I have no idea what maelstrom should be doing right now after this update lmbo.
 
Roger-Daniel said:
The balance is massively better. However, in the notes it said "..and not apply self-damage effects if the player hits themselves to prevent the player from accidentally one-shotting themself." I skimmed over the discussion about the change in the test discord, and ive found some irregularities which have been confusing me a bit. I'm just gonna unofficially call the -1650 damage you automatically get from maelstrom a "smite" from now on since thats easier tbh
direct hit non instakill
nondirect hit instakill
nondirect hit non instakill
multiple non instakill
multiple instakill
Im so very confused now lol. I have no idea what maelstrom should be doing right now after this update lmbo.
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Hey, good catches! So, there definitely appears to be some bugs going on here. What should be happening is that if you hit yourself, no smite damage should be applied -- even if there's enemies around. It shouldn't matter rather the hit is direct or not, either. I'll be sure to take a peak at this when I get the chance!
 
Truecrash said:
Hey, good catches! So, there definitely appears to be some bugs going on here. What should be happening is that if you hit yourself, no smite damage should be applied -- even if there's enemies around. It shouldn't matter rather the hit is direct or not, either. I'll be sure to take a peak at this when I get the chance!
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Thanks for continuing to look at this :)
 
Just tried out the buffed desolation, it feels pretty good! Actually, it feels even more effective than the old siege farm in gold room, mostly because enemies don't aggro onto you until you attack them, so the 10s cast time doesn't really put you in danger like it is supposed to. Minor bug: the sound effect when desolation finishes charging still happens at 12s instead of at the new 10s.

Are there any balancing changes planned for throwing knives combo skills? The main combo feels fairly weak, especially since knives don't have access to any of the strong skills (like cursed thunder/bloodfire/crit).

Saltbeard said:
And well, take it with a grain of salt but let's see, that guy said that grenades do max 2,8k damage now, I can literally dish out that damage with my pistol in 3 shots if I have the right ammo, you could say the grenade is an AOE weapon but then the blunderbuss exists,that only has 1 shot.. but still, I think it's kinda weird.
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I don't really understand the comparison of grenade damage with Blunderbuss damage. Blunderbuss is slow, 3 times as slow. It doesn't make sense if Blunderbuss does the same damage as grenades if its that much slower.

Saltbeard said:
There is also the fact I could use the grenades on a single enemy, but why bother now if it's easier to use my pistol.
All in all I could be wrong with how damage scales with other skills and I'm just dumb :eek:
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I think that's the point though. You have weapons designed to fight one enemy, and you have weapons designed to fight lots of enemies at the same time. You COULD use weapons meant for groups on one enemy, but it wouldn't be as strong as weapons meant for fighting just one enemy.
 
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Also noticed, the bloodfire bar no longer drops over time. it just stays at the same level after you kill an enemy, then instantly drops to 0 after about 10 seconds
 
ruisen2000 said:
Also noticed, the bloodfire bar no longer drops over time. it just stays at the same level after you kill an enemy, then instantly drops to 0 after about 10 seconds
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We've most definitely caught wind of this, and it is being looked into! Thanks for the report!
 
im actually ok with the nade nerf, forces you to find another way to deal with groups of enemies and allows for more impactful weapons down the line in development.
 
I haven't played much besides Cannon Defense this patch, however I went to Jimmy and used the Dutchmans Pestilence, Blade of the Abyss, and Mercer's Pistol to compare time to kill (from my own experience, no hard numbers here.) Mercers was my benchmark.

Blade of the Abyss: The bloodfire buff was very beneficial, it significantly increased the damage it does, bumping it up a tier or two in terms of how good it is. It did indeed feel like a legendary weapon for once. It took about 4 or 5 full sword combos (I use skip cleave,) to kill Jimmy, and pretty much one combo'd regular Tormenta enemies.

Dutchmans Pestilence: Even as a broadsword, it seems to be the best sword in the game now, even better than Leviathan in terms of time to kill at full bloodfire, which as noted, is very easy to maintain. This is most likely due to the critical boost insanely amplifying even weak sword moves with bloodfire. Consistently allowing 3 combos on Jimmy, it's much better than Abyss, as a famed weapon.

For contrast, Mercer, factoring out crits and using only full charge shots, takes 4 shots to kill Jimmy. With 1 crit, 3 full charge shots. I'm glad that sword is now viable when comparing to guns, because as most of us know, Beckett's and Mercer's were just the best in almost all situations, however Dutchmans Pestilence is just too good. I believe Fortune Burnrose hit a 30k bladestorm with it. Granted those were perfect conditions, including potions, doll curse, staff damage boost (I think,) critical hit, max bloodfire, however the point still stands.

I think that critical hit has to be changed in the way it interacts with bloodfire to balance out Dutchmans, that way Blade of the Abyss, as a legendary weapon won't suffer.
 
ruisen2000 said:
Just tried out the buffed desolation, it feels pretty good! Actually, it feels even more effective than the old siege farm in gold room, mostly because enemies don't aggro onto you until you attack them, so the 10s cast time doesn't really put you in danger like it is supposed to. Minor bug: the sound effect when desolation finishes charging still happens at 12s instead of at the new 10s.

Are there any balancing changes planned for throwing knives combo skills? The main combo feels fairly weak, especially since knives don't have access to any of the strong skills (like cursed thunder/bloodfire/crit).




I don't really understand the comparison of grenade damage with Blunderbuss damage. Blunderbuss is slow, 3 times as slow. It doesn't make sense if Blunderbuss does the same damage as grenades if its that much slower.



I think that's the point though. You have weapons designed to fight one enemy, and you have weapons designed to fight lots of enemies at the same time. You COULD use weapons meant for groups on one enemy, but it wouldn't be as strong as weapons meant for fighting just one enemy.
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The comparison is there because in theory it could dish out the damage I do with 3 pistol shots in 1 shot but on multiple enemies, silly comparison since the grenade still has more reach.

And well, yes, we could have weapons designed for different situations, but it kinda limits your choices because there's no reason to use grenades on single enemies(well it still does lots of damage but that's not the idea) now.I get they don't want people to only use the best choice but like, do they really think people would only use one freaking weapon? Cause I ceirtanly used other weapons besides the nades.
 
Saltbeard said:
Wasn't that the point of nades though?
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To deal with groups of enemies, yes. To the extent they were, no. They were not close to balanced and the change was needed.

JessieTT said:
I haven't played much besides Cannon Defense this patch, however I went to Jimmy and used the Dutchmans Pestilence, Blade of the Abyss, and Mercer's Pistol to compare time to kill (from my own experience, no hard numbers here.) Mercers was my benchmark.

Blade of the Abyss: The bloodfire buff was very beneficial, it significantly increased the damage it does, bumping it up a tier or two in terms of how good it is. It did indeed feel like a legendary weapon for once. It took about 4 or 5 full sword combos (I use skip cleave,) to kill Jimmy, and pretty much one combo'd regular Tormenta enemies.

Dutchmans Pestilence: Even as a broadsword, it seems to be the best sword in the game now, even better than Leviathan in terms of time to kill at full bloodfire, which as noted, is very easy to maintain. This is most likely due to the critical boost insanely amplifying even weak sword moves with bloodfire. Consistently allowing 3 combos on Jimmy, it's much better than Abyss, as a famed weapon.

For contrast, Mercer, factoring out crits and using only full charge shots, takes 4 shots to kill Jimmy. With 1 crit, 3 full charge shots. I'm glad that sword is now viable when comparing to guns, because as most of us know, Beckett's and Mercer's were just the best in almost all situations, however Dutchmans Pestilence is just too good. I believe Fortune Burnrose hit a 30k bladestorm with it. Granted those were perfect conditions, including potions, doll curse, staff damage boost (I think,) critical hit, max bloodfire, however the point still stands.

I think that critical hit has to be changed in the way it interacts with bloodfire to balance out Dutchmans, that way Blade of the Abyss, as a legendary weapon won't suffer.
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I think bloodfire has to change. Currently rank only effects charge rate. If they added 2 more ranks to bloodfire (rank 4 and 5) and make the damage 10% perk rank, and adjusting the rank to 5 on abyss I think it would be more balanced.
 
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Saltbeard said:
.I get they don't want people to only use the best choice but like, do they really think people would only use one freaking weapon? Cause I ceirtanly used other weapons besides the nades.
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Well, if your argument is that people won't use only the best weapon, then this nerf wouldn't effect that, no?
 
Bonny Anne said:
I think bloodfire has to change. Currently rank only effects charge rate. If they added 2 more ranks to bloodfire (rank 4 and 5) and make the damage 10% perk rank, and adjusting the rank to 5 on abyss I think it would be more balanced.
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IIRC the introduction of damage per rank was proving to be an issue for the team, but I 100% agree that if that solution can be managed it would be the best solution. That way bloodfire can be put more in line with other weapons and Abyss can stand more of a fighting chance at outperforming it's famed bloodfire counterparts.
 
Bonny Anne said:
To deal with groups of enemies, yes. To the extent they were, no. They were not close to balanced and the change was needed.
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Honestly nades weren't even really that powerful. The reason they seemed that way is because of all the damage increasing bugs in the game that people forget shouldn't be there: dark aura glitch, nade swap, tab glitch, and even the damage range bug, the one that makes it so we deal max damage every hit instead of it being random. All that, combined with the powerful nades tlopo has put in the game like green ornament and moonstone, made nades seem way too powerful. But if all of that were fixed, then that wouldn't be the case at all. Regardless, people are still using the bugs to one shot gold room with nades and they will always use those bugs, unless they get fixed of course.
Bonny Anne said:
I think bloodfire has to change. Currently rank only effects charge rate. If they added 2 more ranks to bloodfire (rank 4 and 5) and make the damage 10% perk rank, and adjusting the rank to 5 on abyss I think it would be more balanced.
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As it is currently, this is not possible for TLOPO to do.

tlopo dev:
Unfortunately, this is impossible at the moment
The charge speed differing for each rank was because I can't tweak the damage per rank
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