Suggestion Let Male Pirates Primp

Sky Kiwi said:
You said "all of the men are either gay, bi***ual, or lacking in testosterone". You gave three options here;
Option 1: Gay
Option 2: Bi
Option 3: Lacking in Testosterone

Straight people are neither gay nor bi, therefore they must be option three!

We all know what you meant, but English is a fickle mistress and I was simply making humour out of a grammatical error.
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Making humor out of grammatical errors? You're my kind of guy.
Elzabeth Red Fire said:
I legit don't get why people are against this. If the emote were to get implemented, which it most likely won't due to the technical limitations, just don't use it! If your favorite restaurant added a new fish taco to the menu, are you going to freak out because you don't like fish tacos? No, you'll order something else. I feel like it's a very similar situation with this debate if you don't like the emote simply don't use it. I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that.

If we're going off the fact that we want to keep "girly" things "girly" and "manly" things "manly", what's the argument for the female pirates being able to do the "/flex" emote or being able to do "/glare"? These aren't typical "feminine" actions just like checking one's nails isn't a typical action for men. Does a female flexing instantly turn them into a man? Of course not! Does a man checking his nails instantly turn him into a female? Of course not!
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The glaring emote is arguably more feminine than masculine, but that's beside the point. I'm not focusing so much on the primping emote itself so much as what it's implying if it were assigned to the men as well. And I don't like what it'd be insinuating. Not at all.
Sires said:
What do you mean? What does "where does it stop?" supposed to imply? You're acting as if it's a bad thing to have a primp option for guys. Gender roles shouldn't exist.
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There's a reason they exist. Men and women are different. Even a man with a more feminine personality (I'm an INFJ for example, if we want to go off of the MBTI personality theory, and it's generally considered more feminine because of the 'feeling' part of my cognitive functions) is still going to exhibit gender specific traits and roles because it's locked in their genetic code. Men can't be mothers and women can't be fathers, for example. To say that gender roles shouldn't exist is to be dangerously ungrateful for what both genders can bring to the table respectively.
 
Captain Jack Truesilver said:
Making humor out of grammatical errors? You're my kind of guy.

The glaring emote is arguably more feminine than masculine, but that's beside the point. I'm not focusing so muwch on the primping emote itself so much as what it's implying if it were assigned to the men as well. And I don't like what it'd be insinuating. Not at all.

There's a reason they exist. Men and women are different. Even a man with a more feminine personality (I'm an INFJ for example, if we want to go off of the MBTI personality theory, and it's generally considered more feminine because of the 'feeling' part of my cognitive functions) is still going to exhibit gender specific traits and roles because it's locked in their genetic code. Men can't be mothers and women can't be fathers, for example. To say that gender roles shouldn't exist is to be dangerously ungrateful for what both genders can bring to the table respectively.
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What exactly is it insinuating? The only thing that I could begin to think of is that it'd be insinuating that a pirate is more "feminine". Even if that were the case, so what? Again, even if it's insinuating something, how does it affect you if you don't use the emote? If you and those who don't like the emote don't use it, then what harm is being done? I refer back to my previous post concerning the tacos, does having the taco on the menu insinuate that everyone likes tacos? Of course not, options are there for those who want them, not everyone has to eat the tacos if they choose not to. If you were at that restaurant and you saw someone eating the taco, would you be concerned that them eating that taco made everyone else think that you like tacos too? Of course not, that would be silly. This is literally a game for kids, do you really think an emote of a male pirate looking at his nails is going to throw the game into chaos or something?

I see your comment about differentiating the genders, but why? This is literally a game where you're basically free to do whatever you please, is seeing a male pirate check his nails really that confusing? Anyone can have pirates of differing genders, for example, I have 3 guy pirates and 3 girl pirates, and that doesn't change anything about me, my sister also had many pirates of differing genders back on TLOPO, and she rarely got any weird reactions at least that I can remember. I don't act any different on my female pirates than I do on my male ones because that just wouldn't make sense. I'm a bit puzzled as to what your argument is trying to say.

Any change to the emote would only affect you if you choose to let it, if you don't like the change, don't use the feature (no one is forcing you to!) and ignore it when you see it. I don't see a problem here.

I apologize for any grammatical or typographical errors, I'm super tired and was trying to loot while writing this ;p
 
Captain Jack Truesilver said:
Making humor out of grammatical errors? You're my kind of guy.

The glaring emote is arguably more feminine than masculine, but that's beside the point. I'm not focusing so much on the primping emote itself so much as what it's implying if it were assigned to the men as well. And I don't like what it'd be insinuating. Not at all.

There's a reason they exist. Men and women are different. Even a man with a more feminine personality (I'm an INFJ for example, if we want to go off of the MBTI personality theory, and it's generally considered more feminine because of the 'feeling' part of my cognitive functions) is still going to exhibit gender specific traits and roles because it's locked in their genetic code. Men can't be mothers and women can't be fathers, for example. To say that gender roles shouldn't exist is to be dangerously ungrateful for what both genders can bring to the table respectively.
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Elzabeth Red Fire said:
What exactly is it insinuating? The only thing that I could begin to think of is that it'd be insinuating that a pirate is more "feminine". Even if that were the case, so what? Again, even if it's insinuating something, how does it affect you if you don't use the emote? If you and those who don't like the emote don't use it, then what harm is being done? I refer back to my previous post concerning the tacos, does having the taco on the menu insinuate that everyone likes tacos? Of course not, options are there for those who want them, not everyone has to eat the tacos if they choose not to. If you were at that restaurant and you saw someone eating the taco, would you be concerned that them eating that taco made everyone else think that you like tacos too? Of course not, that would be silly. This is literally a game for kids, do you really think an emote of a male pirate looking at his nails is going to throw the game into chaos or something?

I see your comment about differentiating the genders, but why? This is literally a game where you're basically free to do whatever you please, is seeing a male pirate check his nails really that confusing? Anyone can have pirates of differing genders, for example, I have 3 guy pirates and 3 girl pirates, and that doesn't change anything about me, my sister also had many pirates of differing genders back on TLOPO, and she rarely got any weird reactions at least that I can remember. I don't act any different on my female pirates than I do on my male ones because that just wouldn't make sense. I'm a bit puzzled as to what your argument is trying to say.

Any change to the emote would only affect you if you choose to let it, if you don't like the change, don't use the feature (no one is forcing you to!) and ignore it when you see it. I don't see a problem here.

I apologize for any grammatical or typographical errors, I'm super tired and was trying to loot while writing this ;p
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These are points I like because I don't believe gender roles shouldn't exist. I don't believe "differences" of gender (or race) should be eradicated. They should be celebrated. That sounds really bad depending on how you read it, so please consider carefully how to interpret that lol. It should be perfectly fine for men to be more feminine, or women to be more masculine, but erasing the words "feminine" and "masculine" altogether would be erasing part of the magic of the human race. Take away or redirect all the negative connotations by all means, but as Truesilver points out there are plenty of differences we should be grateful for. Mother vs Father is always the prime example. So is feeling vs solution based thinking.

Society shouldn't be trying to make everyone the same. We should be trying to accept and even celebrate the fact that people are different. But with that said, we should also allow people to be whatever they want.

And darnit, I was trying to avoid the minefield of SJW'esque conversation and you all finally roped me into it.
 
Elzabeth Red Fire said:
What exactly is it insinuating? The only thing that I could begin to think of is that it'd be insinuating that a pirate is more "feminine". Even if that were the case, so what? Again, even if it's insinuating something, how does it affect you if you don't use the emote? If you and those who don't like the emote don't use it, then what harm is being done? I refer back to my previous post concerning the tacos, does having the taco on the menu insinuate that everyone likes tacos? Of course not, options are there for those who want them, not everyone has to eat the tacos if they choose not to. If you were at that restaurant and you saw someone eating the taco, would you be concerned that them eating that taco made everyone else think that you like tacos too? Of course not, that would be silly. This is literally a game for kids, do you really think an emote of a male pirate looking at his nails is going to throw the game into chaos or something?

I see your comment about differentiating the genders, but why? This is literally a game where you're basically free to do whatever you please, is seeing a male pirate check his nails really that confusing? Anyone can have pirates of differing genders, for example, I have 3 guy pirates and 3 girl pirates, and that doesn't change anything about me, my sister also had many pirates of differing genders back on TLOPO, and she rarely got any weird reactions at least that I can remember. I don't act any different on my female pirates than I do on my male ones because that just wouldn't make sense. I'm a bit puzzled as to what your argument is trying to say.

Any change to the emote would only affect you if you choose to let it, if you don't like the change, don't use the feature (no one is forcing you to!) and ignore it when you see it. I don't see a problem here.

I apologize for any grammatical or typographical errors, I'm super tired and was trying to loot while writing this ;p
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Before I actually go into what it's insinuating, I'd advise you to read this thread from the beginning as to get a better idea of what my argument has been all the way through. I've actually stated several times what it's implying, and I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself.

I have male and female pirates too. I don't understand what that has to do with anything. Let the females do feminine things and let the males do masculine things.
Sky Kiwi said:
These are points I like because I don't believe gender roles shouldn't exist. I don't believe "differences" of gender (or race) should be eradicated. They should be celebrated. That sounds really bad depending on how you read it, so please consider carefully how to interpret that lol. It should be perfectly fine for men to be more feminine, or women to be more masculine, but erasing the words "feminine" and "masculine" altogether would be erasing part of the magic of the human race. Take away or redirect all the negative connotations by all means, but as Truesilver points out there are plenty of differences we should be grateful for. Mother vs Father is always the prime example. So is feeling vs solution based thinking.

Society shouldn't be trying to make everyone the same. We should be trying to accept and even celebrate the fact that people are different. But with that said, we should also allow people to be whatever they want.

And darnit, I was trying to avoid the minefield of SJW'esque conversation and you all finally roped me into it.
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This is the root of my argument. As simple as the primping issue may be, it's a way to acknowledge the differences between males and the females. I just feel that if men were also given the ability to primp in the game, it would, to some degree, be implying that there are no inherent differences between men and women. That's why it bothers me.
 
Captain Jack Truesilver said:
This is the root of my argument. As simple as the primping issue may be, it's a way to acknowledge the differences between males and the females. I just feel that if men were also given the ability to primp in the game, it would, to some degree, be implying that there are no inherent differences between men and women. That's why it bothers me.
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Though we may agree on a lot of things, including the base of the entire argument here, I disagree with the idea that everything I said should deny male pirates the primp emote.

Not that it really matters, since it won't happen lol
 
It truly is fascinating to see how shaken up people can get over a superficial expression of one's self imposed identity.

Some of you should google "strawman fallacy" and then get back to me. I will attempt to articulate my argument one more time...

Does the potential benefit of this emote's hypothetical implementation at all rival the difficulty of this debate, or even its technical difficulty? I would say it does not. I can think of a plethora of other game aspects that I'd rather see time devoted to, that would also result in less emotional chaos. That's the logic side.

Now I'll dabble a bit in the psychology behind it. This is entirely speculative, but I'll mention it anyway. Along with the type of person who just MUST have what I guess could be described as gender fluid content, comes an insatiable desire for more and more boundaries to be pushed -- the kind of excess that I do not want to see valuable resources poured into. Is it a real need, or just an urge to defy an imaginary authoritarian?

This is why it's common for the SJW way of thinking to be described as cancerous. It replicates out of control with no real purpose, and sucks the resources of the main body dry.
 
WilyJaymes said:
It truly is fascinating to see how shaken up people can get over a superficial expression of one's self imposed identity.

Some of you should google "strawman fallacy" and then get back to me. I will attempt to articulate my argument one more time...

Does the potential benefit of this emote's hypothetical implementation at all rival the difficulty of this debate, or even its technical difficulty? I would say it does not. I can think of a plethora of other game aspects that I'd rather see time devoted to, that would also result in less emotional chaos. That's the logic side.

Now I'll dabble a bit in the psychology behind it. This is entirely speculative, but I'll mention it anyway. Along with the type of person who just MUST have what I guess could be described as gender fluid content, comes an insatiable desire for more and more boundaries to be pushed -- the kind of excess that I do not want to see valuable resources poured into. Is it a real need, or just an urge to defy an imaginary authoritarian?

This is why it's common for the SJW way of thinking to be described as cancerous. It replicates out of control with no real purpose, and sucks the resources of the main body dry.
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I could use a third person perspective. Would you say that I've been making a straw man argument? As far as I'm concerned, I haven't, but I've been worried sine the beginning if I could in fact be wrong.
 
Captain Jack Truesilver said:
Before I actually go into what it's insinuating, I'd advise you to read this thread from the beginning as to get a better idea of what my argument has been all the way through. I've actually stated several times what it's implying, and I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself.

I have male and female pirates too. I don't understand what that has to do with anything. Let the females do feminine things and let the males do masculine things.

This is the root of my argument. As simple as the primping issue may be, it's a way to acknowledge the differences between males and the females. I just feel that if men were also given the ability to primp in the game, it would, to some degree, be implying that there are no inherent differences between men and women. That's why it bothers me.
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Again, this game being what it is, an MMORPG, disregarding all the gender roles hullaballoo, why deny the player in a game some features based on the gender of their pirate? Would you deny a woman the use of gym equipment because if she had some muscle, she'd be less distinguishable from a man? I don't think so. Just silly in my opinion, along with this entire argument, although I do find it funny that we can argue for hours about the femininity and masculinity of silly pirates on a screen!

Going off of your recent post about the strawman argument, (I can't quote it here since I started typing this before it was posted hence I can't quote it without reloading the page and retyping all of this) I think there's some of that going on on every side of this argument whether you're for or against it. Many of us are just restating our arguments in different words without looking at the content of the other's argument.
 
Captain Jack Truesilver said:
I could use a third person perspective. Would you say that I've been making a straw man argument? As far as I'm concerned, I haven't, but I've been worried sine the beginning if I could in fact be wrong.
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Nah. I mainly directed that toward the few who missed the point I was making. You are however coming from what I suppose could be considered an ideological standpoint. I happen to agree with you, but the other side probably wouldn't. As such, they're unlikely to be convinced. I attempted to steer the conversation in another direction by pointing at the practical reasons why this emote should not become a thing.

Elzabeth Red Fire said:
Again, this game being what it is, an MMORPG, disregarding all the gender roles hullaballoo, why deny the player in a game some features based on the gender of their pirate? Would you deny a woman the use of gym equipment because if she had some muscle, she'd be less distinguishable from a man? I don't think so. Just silly in my opinion, along with this entire argument, although I do find it funny that we can argue for hours about the femininity and masculinity of silly pirates on a screen!

Going off of your recent post about the strawman argument, (I can't quote it here since I started typing this before it was posted hence I can't quote it without reloading the page and retyping all of this) I think there's some of that going on on every side of this argument whether you're for or against it. Many of us are just restating our arguments in different words without looking at the content of the other's argument.
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That is mostly true. I have reworded my stance several times because a few individuals seem to think I'm putting forth an idea that I'm not. I haven't directly addressed any arguments made by you or the others mainly because it's an uphill battle for both sides. Each is motivated by highly opinionated views on something subjective. There's not a lot of progress to be made there. I have my own views, of course, but as I said to Jack, I'm trying to focus on practical reasons for justifying our side.
 
I have no strong opinions either way so far a primping is concerned

....but this.....

Sky Kiwi said:
Hold up, glaring not a feminine action? Please, have you ever told a series of bad puns to a girlfriend before?! Women own the glare!
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....when you annoy your girlfriend she doesn't glare.....she gives you 'The Look'!!

The Look is 100% a female only expression, passed down from mother to daughter across countless generations. It's purpose is to inflict fear on the male of the species.
A glare is most definitely a guy expression...we don't need to glare... The Look is much more effective against guys than a glare could ever be. :p


N.B. The Look is completely ineffective against other women, one raised eyebrow is generally sufficient for them to know that we are implying The Look.
 
WilyJaymes said:
Nah. I mainly directed that toward the few who missed the point I was making. You are however coming from what I suppose could be considered an ideological standpoint. I happen to agree with you, but the other side probably wouldn't. As such, they're unlikely to be convinced. I attempted to steer the conversation in another direction by pointing at the practical reasons why this emote should not become a thing.



That is mostly true. I have reworded my stance several times because a few individuals seem to think I'm putting forth an idea that I'm not. I haven't directly addressed any arguments made by you or the others mainly because it's an uphill battle for both sides. Each is motivated by highly opinionated views on something subjective. There's not a lot of progress to be made there. I have my own views, of course, but as I said to Jack, I'm trying to focus on practical reasons for justifying our side.
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Yeah, that's more what it is. Ideological standpoint. That sums it up pretty well.

And yes, I also agree with you on the practicality of the whole thing, though I don't believe it's entirely impractical either. Would it be difficult to implement? Yes, but not nearly to the extent that it would if they were to design an entirely new emote. Regardless, from a purely practical standpoint I don't believe it's even worth discussing.
 
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