Discussion Revert the Copperhead Broadside Nerf - Patch v1.21.2

[Roger-Daniel]

Perhaps I could be wrong but a poll and this lengthy discussion which has gone on for a while, seemingly, is valid feedback, however seeing as the team is "putting their foot down" effectively, even though the minority want Copperhead to stay the way it is as of right now, it appears as if the feedback is being ignored, calling in to question the need to even give feedback.

The poll is a very small section of our community overall. We are able to see feedback from our systems, as well as chat logs in-game, to compile a more accurate representation of what people think of changes. The majority are in favor of the current Copperhead.

It's true that the community doesn't really know the actual majority of everyone thats ever spoken about copperhead in feedback or in game, but we don't need to. The TLOPO team does because they are making the changes, not us.

Besides, the thread has the majority against a copperhead nerf reversion

 

[JessieTT]

It's true that the community doesn't really know the actual majority of everyone thats ever spoken about copperhead in feedback or in game, but we don't need to. The TLOPO team does because they are making the changes, not us.

Besides, the thread has the majority against a copperhead nerf reversion

I did not state the majority was for a Copperhead nerf reversion, I stated the majority were not satisfied with Copperhead in it's current state, which is evidenced by less than 50% of the vote wanting Copperhead to remain as it currently is.

The reason I was asking about population numbers is to determine if the TLOPO team is indeed sure that the majority of people are in favor of Copperhead as it currently is. There's been a lot of scandal around the staff team and investigations done into staff members about potential bias before. You may be fine taking the TLOPO team at their word, however I am not and I would like to see the backing evidence for their claims.

 

[Roger-Daniel]

I did not state the majority was for a Copperhead nerf reversion, I stated the majority were not satisfied with Copperhead in it's current state, which is evidenced by less than 50% of the vote wanting Copperhead to remain as it currently is.

The reason I was asking about population numbers is to determine if the TLOPO team is indeed sure that the majority of people are in favor of Copperhead as it currently is. There's been a lot of scandal around the staff team and investigations done into staff members about potential bias before. You may be fine taking the TLOPO team at their word, however I am not and I would like to see the backing evidence for their claims.

The majority is saying no compared to yes, but what I think people fail to understand is that copperhead has been already been buffed since this poll went live so this poll has literally already served it's purpose.
It seems that people are either failing to remember/not doing a little bit of research or just choosing to get upset over this for no reason.

 

[JessieTT]

The majority is saying no compared to yes, but what I think people fail to understand is that copperhead has been already been buffed since this poll went live so this poll has literally already served it's purpose.
It seems that people are either failing to remember/not doing a little bit of research or just choosing to get upset over this for no reason.

This thread went live over 6 months ago. A developer literally said above that they will not (and therefore I assume they have not) make changes to Copperhead based on this poll. Based on this poll is the important part there.

The majority is saying Copperhead needs to be changed. There are three options on this thread. One is to revert Copperhead to what it used to be, one is to buff Copperhead from what it is now (which, reverting it would also be a buff) and the 3rd option is to keep it as is.

44.6% of voters wanted it to stay the same, and therefore we can conclude that the other 55.4% of voters on this thread want Copperhead buffed in some way, whether that is a full reversion or not.

 

[John Macbatten]

I did not state the majority was for a Copperhead nerf reversion, I stated the majority were not satisfied with Copperhead in it's current state, which is evidenced by less than 50% of the vote wanting Copperhead to remain as it currently is.

The forums is a tiny subsection of our community. While we do take their feedback, we also take it from various other places (I believe Truecrash has already stated this, but just in case it was missed). So this poll (also consider it was made from a player, not TLOPO Staff), is not the be all and end of all of balancing changes to the game.

The reason I was asking about population numbers is to determine if the TLOPO team is indeed sure that the majority of people are in favor of Copperhead as it currently is

As for our population numbers, the last public numbers I could find that we gave out are 230,000 registered players, so as you might be able to tell from that 139 isn't exactly an appropriate sample size. Hope this helps.

 

[TheReaperr]

If what the Tlopo Crew's stating is true then create an official poll it wouldn't hurt anyone so we can have a better perspective, because saying that in our admin panels we can see through the chat logs and etc that people are happy and everything won't justify our current situation, if what is seen over there is the majority, then why do we have this situation here? There's definitely an issue and it must be addressed.

I propose The Staff of Tlopo create an official poll regarding this matter therefore there won't be any excuse of old topic or new, as simple as that, let the community decide.

 

[Roger-Daniel]

This thread went live over 6 months ago. A developer literally said above that they will not (and therefore I assume they have not) make changes to Copperhead based on this poll. Based on this poll is the important part there.

The majority is saying Copperhead needs to be changed. There are three options on this thread. One is to revert Copperhead to what it used to be, one is to buff Copperhead from what it is now (which, reverting it would also be a buff) and the 3rd option is to keep it as is.

That's because they already did - and it already has, don't make that assumption. It was a pretty big buff to be honest.
The majority is saying copperhead needs to be changed but before someone dug up this old thread it already was changed. The results of the thread dont just magically omit themselves until someone stumbles upon this thread months after it already served it's purpose.
And for the record the options are:
yes
no but buff
no

and guess which one already won?

 

[JessieTT]

The forums is a tiny subsection of our community. While we do take their feedback, we also take it from various other places (I believe Truecrash has already stated this, but just in case it was missed). So this poll (also consider it was made from a player, not TLOPO Staff), is not the be all and end of all of balancing changes to the game.


As for our population numbers, the last public numbers I could find that we gave out are 230,000 registered players, so as you might be able to tell from that 139 isn't exactly an appropriate sample size. Hope this helps.

All of that is true, however I did acknowledge that the forums isn't exactly all of the players, (I never stated that feedback was not acquired through other means, however the forums allows for the most comprehensive platform to give feedback on.) Especially not all of the players who have opinions about this stuff. I did state that given we don't have especially recent numbers, and if I had to guess there are not 230000 active players (granted you did say registered,) then the most accurate measure the community would have right now if you aren't privy to the stats that the staff are, is this poll, and extrapolate the ratio for a bigger population. I personally would not balance around the opinion of 139 people either, in the context of 230,000 active players, but the vast majority of those 230,000 do not play the game based on my observations, and as a result you are balancing based on this numbers for players that do not exist anymore.

No one has presented a reason as to why the ratio of people on the forums vying for certain changes would be different to non forums users, and so I stand by the implied statement that using the ratio we have on this poll right now is still the most valid method for forum users and players since we do not have access to the current stats.

 

[JessieTT]

That's because they already did - and it already has, don't make that assumption. It was a pretty big buff to be honest.
The majority is saying copperhead needs to be changed but before someone dug up this old thread it already was changed. The results of the thread dont just magically omit themselves until someone stumbles upon this thread months after it already served it's purpose.
And for the record the options are:
yes
no but buff
no

and guess which one already won?

Where has a developer or staff member stated that they balanced and made changes around Copperhead specifically because of this poll? there is a difference between correlation and causation, and until causation can be proved than correlation is the only relationship there is.

I never stated the results should omit themselves. Reference the above point, the "results" you are referencing, which I assume is the buff you are referencing, has not been proven to be as a result of this thread.

The options are in context of the question "Do you want the Copperhead upgrade reverted?" taking it in such a context, yes means to revert the Copperhead nerf, no but buff means to buff current Copperhead, and no means to keep it the way it is. As I stated above, one individual option may have won out, but the highest proportion of votes wanted Copperhead to be changed in the form of a buff. The extremity of the buff is what is comes in to the question then, an extreme "buff" in the form of full reversion, or a small buff in the form of perhaps a slight increasing of the numbers.

EDIT: Reference the staff post above, stating that the forums is not the be-all-end-all and they take and use feedback from other platforms. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that they could have made this decision independent of the poll, whether they chose to ignore the poll, or they were making these decisions before the poll was a thing.

 

[Roger-Daniel]

Where has a developer or staff member stated that they balanced and made changes around Copperhead specifically because of this poll? there is a difference between correlation and causation, and until causation can be proved than correlation is the only relationship there is.

I never stated the results should omit themselves. Reference the above point, the "results" you are referencing, which I assume is the buff you are referencing, has not been proven to be as a result of this thread.

This thread, alongside other channels for feedback, was helpful with determining the route to go with balance changes, and I hope we were able to capture the spirit of what everyone as a community wanted.

As I stated above, one individual option may have won out, but the highest proportion of votes wanted Copperhead to be changed in the form of a buff.

And it already has been buffed after this thread was made as per the majority's request. You can't just say that the buff doesn't count because there is no evidence this poll was responsible for it.

Regardless, this thread is old as sin, copperhead is confirmed to be staying the same, and I already got what I wanted months ago in the form of copperhead being rebuffed after it got nerfed, so im gonna step back from this discussion since it's quite literally doomed to go nowhere.

 

[JessieTT]

And it already has been buffed after this thread was made as per the majority's request. You can't just say that the buff doesn't count because there is no evidence this poll was responsible for it.

Regardless, this thread is old as sin, copperhead is confirmed to be staying the same, and I already got what I wanted months ago in the form of copperhead being rebuffed after it got nerfed, so im gonna step back from this discussion since it's quite literally doomed to go nowhere.

The thread could mean the responses within the thread, the poll, or a mix of the two. I never said the buff "doesn't count." A buff is a buff and it cannot be willed away by wishing it so.

 

[squintz]

I have reread the first two pages and a lot of people say that this nerf is good for svs because copperhead was overpowering other ships. I don't really see why a bunch of staff members arguing that copperhead was too overpowered makes them bias.

"I have reread the first two pages and a lot of people say that this nerf is good for svs because copperhead was overpowering other ships."

And there is one of the reasons for the dissatisfaction by the other 2/3 of players who are not pvp, svs, svp at all and didn't mind the 'advantage' the copper would give them in pve runs and such. Nerf something in pvp/svs, but don't nerf pve and try to claim pve is supposed to be balanced like pvp. That's nonsense. Pve is primarily solo and solo people don't put much importance in 'balance'. If I worked that hard to get a decked out copper, then by jolly I should be able to enjoy the fruits of my over powered labor which is exactly why I wanted the copper. Leave pve out of all these nerfs and so-called balance games.

 

[squintz]

"And it already has been buffed after this thread was made as per the majority's request."

That is a wrong statement and assumption as the mod has said the majority of PVP's/SVS'r, NOT the majority of the playing community.
And if they were implying this, then that would also be deceiving. No where was a poll taken with the pve community.

 

[squintz]

"And it already has been buffed after this thread was made as per the majority's request."

That is a wrong statement and assumption as the mod has said the majority of PVP's/SVS'r, NOT the majority of the playing community.
And if they were implying this, then that would also be deceiving. No where was a poll taken with the pve community.

And my answer would have always been the same and consistent, do whatever you want to pvp/svs, leave my PVE experience alone. Period.

 

[Arr]

"I have reread the first two pages and a lot of people say that this nerf is good for svs because copperhead was overpowering other ships."

And there is one of the reasons for the dissatisfaction by the other 2/3 of players who are not pvp, svs, svp at all and didn't mind the 'advantage' the copper would give them in pve runs and such. Nerf something in pvp/svs, but don't nerf pve and try to claim pve is supposed to be balanced like pvp. That's nonsense. Pve is primarily solo and solo people don't put much importance in 'balance'. If I worked that hard to get a decked out copper, then by jolly I should be able to enjoy the fruits of my over powered labor which is exactly why I wanted the copper. Leave pve out of all these nerfs and so-called balance games.

I get that a lot didn't mind the advantage of copperhead being overpowered but it was overpowered against not just regular enemy ships but hunters. Hunters shouldn't just sink in a matter of a couple broadsides. They currently can't separate the damage between svs and sve so their hands were tied and had to nerf copperhead's damage both in svs and sve. They could have maybe not allowed anyone to use copperhead in svs until they can separate the damage to not impact damage dealt in sve but some people already stated their distaste for how overpowered copperhead was against hunters, also they aren't done balancing the game so there will definitely be more complaints of nerfing and whatnot.

 

[Davy Darkrage]

PSA: You can edit posts rather than making multiple back to back. You can quote multiple posts in a single reply by using the "Quote" button instead of the "Reply" button. You can even quote only an excerpt of a post (or split a reply into multiple parts) by highlighting the parts you wish to reply to and selecting one of the options that pops up:

Anyways, with the concession that the last page or so of posts have been pretty even-tempered, I'd like to remind everyone that vitriol is not okay and will result in a thread reply ban or having this thread locked. Leave the personal jabs out of it and be kind to each other.

 

[TheReaperr]

I get that a lot didn't mind the advantage of copperhead being overpowered but it was overpowered against not just regular enemy ships but hunters. Hunters shouldn't just sink in a matter of a couple broadsides. They currently can't separate the damage between svs and sve so their hands were tied and had to nerf copperhead's damage both in svs and sve. They could have maybe not allowed anyone to use copperhead in svs until they can separate the damage to not impact damage dealt in sve but some people already stated their distaste for how overpowered copperhead was against hunters, also they aren't done balancing the game so there will definitely be more complaints of nerfing and whatnot.

Are you aware of the fact that a maxed out storm chaser can actually 1 broadside a hunter, what is it with the excuse of a hunter should be powerful? Hunters back in POTCO days were also weak in terms of armor so the whole reasoning of shouldn’t be allowed to 1 shot a hunter is just weak.

The balancing of PVE is just non sense, as squintz mentioned before the main idea of PVE in an mmo is to be the most powerful individual and I said this before, We don’t get there easily.

 

[TheReaperr]

At this point I’m sure this decision was taken because of the SvS community and it’s a complete injustice to the PVE player base, the case of extreme damage is still in the game and people aren’t complaining about that, which is odd to me.

I’ve had conversation with over 70 players out of a 170 active players yesterday, and most of them were not satisfied with the Copperhead situation so I’m very interested that this decision was taken because of 230,000 active registered users feedback, but now days the peak is at 300-700 which is not even a percentage of what was stated for this matter and most the current active players from what I’ve seen and heard so far are not with this Copperhead nerf.

 

[Arr]

Are you aware of the fact that a maxed out storm chaser can actually 1 broadside a hunter, what is it with the excuse of a hunter should be powerful? Hunters back in POTCO days were also weak in terms of armor so the whole reasoning of shouldn’t be allowed to 1 shot a hunter is just weak.

The balancing of PVE is just non sense, as squintz mentioned before the main idea of PVE in an mmo is to be the most powerful individual and I said this before, We don’t get there easily.

Well they do give us materials that shouldn't be easy to get and if a storm chaser can actually sink a hunter with one broadside then they'll probably nerf storm chaser, yes we're overpowered but that shouldn't be the case when talking about high level bosses or hunters/warships.

 

[TheReaperr]

Well they do give us materials that shouldn't be easy to get and if a storm chaser can actually sink a hunter with one broadside then they'll probably nerf storm chaser, yes we're overpowered but that shouldn't be the case when talking about high level bosses or hunters/warships.

First of all, how did you make this equation of materials and difficulty all together? and if that's the case, the extreme amount of Copperhead material consumption should result a powerful ship which that's not the case in the game regarding the materials you require to build such ship.

Secondly, Bosses and ships are 2 different entities you can't just compare it to each other and if you do we still have Ship of the Line which in terms of sustainability and armour, it's at top of any other ship and we have to consider Battle-Royale with it's devastating pure explosive broadside, that by itself is already a high lvl boss battle which still can be dodged perfectly if you know how to sail so that decreases the level of difficulty to zero, and we have Boss type ships in the game such as Fleets or Queen Anne's Revenge.

Also you can solo most of the bosses in the game itself, it only takes longer time obviously and again you won't die if you know what you're doing.