Discussion Why trading is a BAD idea...

[DanceWithTheDevil]

Wait I'm a bit late to the discussion... please, please, please tell me trading isn't seriously even being considered as an option?
This will devalue the loot to unparalleled proportions- non cursed famed are going to be peanuts and even legendary cursed will lose their luster.

Have you ever played another MMO before? Do you know how an economy works? Based off what you believe will happen I'm under the impression that your answer is no to each of them.

 

[Stormtimbers]

This will devalue the loot to unparalleled proportions- non cursed famed are going to be peanuts and even legendary cursed will lose their luster.

Do you realize that these items will not be devalued because it still takes the same amount of work to obtain them?

 

[Peter Goldbeard]

Do you realize that these items will not be devalued because it still takes the same amount of work to obtain them?

I see where your coming from, but this is actually not true. With trading, people don't need to get lucky to find a weapon. It's a 100% guarantee that they will get the item. Without trading, you can loot for 100 years and never get a weapon. Basically, if trading is implemented and you want a weapon, you can buy it from one of the hundreds of people that has it. If trading is not implemented and you have a weapon, money and other weapons that your have have nothing to do with it; you have to put in time and effort to earn it. Although I don't believe trading is all bad, it will devalue items somewhat. The thing that we won't know without at least testing it is how much it will devalue them. Hopefully, only a small bit of value is lost and more is gained in other places. What many others are worried about is if a lot of value is lost in the items to the point that it devalues the game. I hope that everyone understands each other here and why some are worried. They have reason to worry, but trading could turn out to be great. As it seems that they will be implementing trading eventually, we will just have to wait and see!

 

[Pirate Guy]

Do you realize that these items will not be devalued because it still takes the same amount of work to obtain them?

Well yes to get the weapon in the first place, but to trade for it, no work needed.

 

[Pirate Guy]

I see where your coming from, but this is actually not true. With trading, people don't need to get lucky to find a weapon. It's a 100% guarantee that they will get the item. Without trading, you can loot for 100 years and never get a weapon. Basically, if trading is implemented and you want a weapon, you can buy it from one of the hundreds of people that has it. If trading is not implemented and you have a weapon, money and other weapons that your have have nothing to do with it; you have to put in time and effort to earn it. Although I don't believe trading is all bad, it will devalue items somewhat. The thing that we won't know without at least testing it is how much it will devalue them. Hopefully, only a small bit of value is lost and more is gained in other places. What many others are worried about is if a lot of value is lost in the items to the point that it devalues the game. I hope that everyone understands each other here and why some are worried. They have reason to worry, but trading could turn out to be great. As it seems that they will be implementing trading eventually, we will just have to wait and see!

My main point is basically a couple levels:
1. The weaker, common famed (assassins cutlass, bejeweled broadsword, privateers bayonet, etc) will become essentially as rare as a common item or a rare item, because SO many duplicates are found and trashed that slowly but surely they would just all be put on the market for ridiculously low price

2. The semi-rare and usable famed (masterwork broadsword, vipers den knives, etc) basically lose their luster as eventually everyone trades for the ones they're missing with the other ones they have dupes of. Eventually everyone has every famed they want for their ideal inventory.

3. Legendaries go from being the deciding factor on a looters inventory to basically just show weapons. Without being able to definitively tell whether or not someone looted a weapon, you have no reason to respect that weapon.

 

[Stormtimbers]

Well yes to get the weapon in the first place, but to trade for it, no work needed.

Yes, there actually is. What do you think I'm trading for the item that I want? Let's say that someone is selling a Lost Sword for 150k gold. How do I get the gold to buy the sword that I want? Work! That gold isn't just going to appear out of nowhere.

 

[Pirate Guy]

Yes, there actually is. What do you think I'm trading for the item that I want? Let's say that someone is selling a Lost Sword for 150k gold. How do I get the gold to buy the sword that I want? Work! That gold isn't just going to appear out of nowhere.

I assume most trades will come from people trading their dupes- Because of this I guarantee that the trade will not reflect the value of the item in most cases, therefore devaluing it. See my post above.

The value of items doesn't really come from the work it takes to get them but the rarity and respect they command, once you take away the fact that currently the only weapons in your inventory are the ones your personally looted, the value vanishes.

 

[Thomas Sailskull]

Perhaps a way to differentiate between items you looted, and items recieved in trade. Say when an item drops, it gets tagged as "Looted by You" on the card. But if that item gets put through the trading system, it loses that tag, and now has a "Received from Trade". Also perhaps add a little something like a slightly different background on the inventory page for traded items, much like how a red item means you too low to use it.

This way dedicated looters can have something to show for all the time they spent slogging through duplicate after duplicate for that nice bright inventory, or that collection of legendaries, vs those who simply traded away the first duplicate they found to get one they didn't.

 

[Peter Goldbeard]

Perhaps a way to differentiate between items you looted, and items recieved in trade. Say when an item drops, it gets tagged as "Looted by You" on the card. But if that item gets put through the trading system, it loses that tag, and now has a "Received from Trade". Also perhaps add a little something like a slightly different background on the inventory page for traded items, much like how a red item means you too low to use it.

This way dedicated looters can have something to show for all the time they spent slogging through duplicate after duplicate for that nice bright inventory, or that collection of legendaries, vs those who simply traded away the first duplicate they found to get one they didn't.

I had this exact thought as well! Maybe even a mark on the weapon, or a glowing blade for swords, etc. to show off that you put in the hard work for it.

 

[Stormtimbers]

I had this exact thought as well! Maybe even a mark on the weapon, or a glowing blade for swords, etc. to show off that you put in the hard work for it.

It should certainly not have any effect on what it actually looks like, especially not a brand as significant as a full glow. A simple note on the weapon card would be sufficient.

 

[Thomas Sailskull]

It should certainly not have any effect on what it actually looks like, especially not a brand as significant as a full glow. A simple note on the weapon card would be sufficient.

Quick edit in paint to show what I was thinking:

Basically a nice gold star on the card/inventory icon, if it looted by you. Also the text at the bottom to say Looted by You/Traded For.

 

[Stormtimbers]

Quick edit in paint to show what I was thinking:

Basically a nice gold star on the card/inventory icon, if it looted by you. Also the text at the bottom to say Looted by You/Traded For.

Instead of saying "Traded For" it should just always say "Looted By (whoever it was looted by)"

Nice representation though

 

[Thomas Sailskull]

Instead of saying "Traded For" it should just always say "Looted By (whoever it was looted by)"

Nice representation though

I not exactly sure how weapons are coded, but a "Looted by <NAME>" would probably be a nightmare to setup, if weapons are coded how I believe they are. This way only needs two, the traded and looted version.

 

[Sky Kiwi]

Instead of saying "Traded For" it should just always say "Looted By (whoever it was looted by)"

Nice representation though

I not exactly sure how weapons are coded, but a "Looted by <NAME>" would probably be a nightmare to setup, if weapons are coded how I believe they are. This way only needs two, the traded and looted version.

Adding "Looted by <NAME>" is quite unrealistic for this game.

TLOPO's items are all just presets with no customization. This means each item is probably just represented by an ID, specifically a short (possibly an integer, but it shouldn't be). For example an inventory might just be a series of numbers stored in an array.

[4, 77, 93, 44] would mean [Grenade, Admiral's Cutlass, Swordsman Doll, Vile Staff] for example.

This means there is no database for all the items in the game, which is also why making "item tracking" not feasable (hence the cannon ram debacle). Each character has their own set of data, and their items are simply represented by a bunch of numbers. This is a very efficient way of doing things, though it isn't powerful.

To make an item able to have "custom" data, you need to create a whole new database table for every single item a player has. Then each item has a unique ID (UUID) which is referenced in the player character database.

So for the old style, you get a table that looks like

But with custom items, you need to create an item table and reference it with their UUID's. If we do this just to add looters names we would need to create a database for all the looted items in the game that looks something like this:

Note: I am only showing items that "SkyKiwi" has in this example. Normally in the database the UUID value would increase by 1 each new item.

And then we need to reference those items UUID's in the character table like this:

While the character's table only increases in required size by increasing the inventory's data type (from a short to a long, for example), the entire new table is a lot of data to store. Think about the fact that every item every player has would need its own line in the item table.

There are plenty of games that do this, this is true, but POTCO was not one of them. We could make it this way, it's entirely possible. But unless the devs are keeping quiet about some awesome servers I would kill to have, I don't see this being a feasible route.

Source: I dabble a lot in game development, and I am especially interested in MMOs. My best direct source for the example database I gave above: when Iris Online was shut down, I created a private server of my own for it. This included creating all the databases, and when I dabbled in creating new items I had to learn how it all worked. Iris worked as the example I gave above, just with a lot more data.

 

[Stormtimbers]

Adding "Looted by <NAME>" is quite unrealistic for this game.

TLOPO's items are all just presets with no customization. This means each item is probably just represented by an ID, specifically a short (possibly an integer, but it shouldn't be). For example an inventory might just be a series of numbers stored in an array.

[4, 77, 93, 44] would mean [Grenade, Admiral's Cutlass, Swordsman Doll, Vile Staff] for example.

This means there is no database for all the items in the game, which is also why making "item tracking" not feasable (hence the cannon ram debacle). Each character has their own set of data, and their items are simply represented by a bunch of numbers. This is a very efficient way of doing things, though it isn't powerful.

To make an item able to have "custom" data, you need to create a whole new database table for every single item a player has. Then each item has a unique ID (UUID) which is referenced in the player character database.

So for the old style, you get a table that looks like

But with custom items, you need to create an item table and reference it with their UUID's. If we do this just to add looters names we would need to create a database for all the looted items in the game that looks something like this:

Note: I am only showing items that "SkyKiwi" has in this example. Normally in the database the UUID value would increase by 1 each new item.

And then we need to reference those items UUID's in the character table like this:

While the character's table only increases in required size by increasing the inventory's data type (from a short to a long, for example), the entire new table is a lot of data to store. Think about the fact that every item every player has would need its own line in the item table.

There are plenty of games that do this, this is true, but POTCO was not one of them. We could make it this way, it's entirely possible. But unless the devs are keeping quiet about some awesome servers I would kill to have, I don't see this being a feasible route.

Source: I dabble a lot in game development, and I am especially interested in MMOs. My best direct source for the example database I gave above: when Iris Online was shut down, I created a private server of my own for it. This included creating all the databases, and when I dabbled in creating new items I had to learn how it all worked. Iris worked as the example I gave above, just with a lot more data.

Thanks for giving the time to give us the extra information

 

[Thomas Sailskull]

Adding "Looted by <NAME>" is quite unrealistic for this game.

TLOPO's items are all just presets with no customization. This means each item is probably just represented by an ID, specifically a short (possibly an integer, but it shouldn't be). For example an inventory might just be a series of numbers stored in an array.

[4, 77, 93, 44] would mean [Grenade, Admiral's Cutlass, Swordsman Doll, Vile Staff] for example.

This means there is no database for all the items in the game, which is also why making "item tracking" not feasable (hence the cannon ram debacle). Each character has their own set of data, and their items are simply represented by a bunch of numbers. This is a very efficient way of doing things, though it isn't powerful.

To make an item able to have "custom" data, you need to create a whole new database table for every single item a player has. Then each item has a unique ID (UUID) which is referenced in the player character database.

So for the old style, you get a table that looks like

But with custom items, you need to create an item table and reference it with their UUID's. If we do this just to add looters names we would need to create a database for all the looted items in the game that looks something like this:

Note: I am only showing items that "SkyKiwi" has in this example. Normally in the database the UUID value would increase by 1 each new item.

And then we need to reference those items UUID's in the character table like this:

While the character's table only increases in required size by increasing the inventory's data type (from a short to a long, for example), the entire new table is a lot of data to store. Think about the fact that every item every player has would need its own line in the item table.

There are plenty of games that do this, this is true, but POTCO was not one of them. We could make it this way, it's entirely possible. But unless the devs are keeping quiet about some awesome servers I would kill to have, I don't see this being a feasible route.

Source: I dabble a lot in game development, and I am especially interested in MMOs. My best direct source for the example database I gave above: when Iris Online was shut down, I created a private server of my own for it. This included creating all the databases, and when I dabbled in creating new items I had to learn how it all worked. Iris worked as the example I gave above, just with a lot more data.

That is why I suggested just a Looted and a Traded version of each. It would only require copying each item a single time, or more probably, editing all current items into the looted version, then adding in the traded version, which would only drop from trade.

 

[ScarlettT]

I disagree.

There isn't one way to play the game. If looting is your thing, cool. But for others it's just another aspect of the game, like playing cards or fishing.

If you primarily loot in this game, you guys would be rich as hell because as you get duplicates, you set the price someone has to trade gold or items for. Ya'll would be the richest in the game. You'd probably even set up your own guild and call yourselves master traders or master looters or something.

If there was a famed weapon I really wanted, and I looted and looted and I'm just not lucky enough for the game to randomly drop it to me, I'd gladly pay 15k for one.

Likewise, I have two brights, exactly the same. It practically kills me to sell it back to the game for 10 measly coins, when I know one of my girlfriends would die for it. So I keep it in my inventory, taking up space.

Also, some Peddlers clothing is only available one month out of the year. One month. So if I missed one, I have to wait an ENTIRE year to get it again. Or, I could trade or pay gold to someone who has one.

Better than selling back to the game. I have had multiple famed weapons that are exactly the same. And it literally kills me to give it back to the game, when someone would trade me their arm for it.

Virtually all successful games have some form of trading. Look at our inventory! It's practically set up for this. It's just the natural next step. We used to not have any inventory space. We used to not be able to change our hair. I used to be stuck in the same clothes everyday.

But then again, why drive a car when you can ride a horse and buggy?

 

[Sam Whalebones]

Virtually all successful games have some form of trading. Look at our inventory! It's practically set up for this. It's just the natural next step. We used to not have any inventory space. We used to not be able to change our hair. I used to be stuck in the same clothes everyday.

This game has never included the idea of equal access to gratifications. It was simply the marketing set up of "paying customers" vs "limited access customers on trial" implying that a lot of players did not have access to features another lot of players had. And the game turned out to be the greatest of them all Trading had for good reasons been out of the question: half of the population could not use the offer even if bought in-game... the other half had access to more classes and means to get what they wanted and move further.
Implementing a version where everybody eventually would get the same items from trade would be a change in the concept. And no one needs to test to know that removing the long term gratifications from a game is a killer.
Other games and other economies all have seen a new class of " knowledgeable auctioneers" emerging from the players for whom gratification meant to get the most for their items... and to announce wisely " what a specific item should go for".
You all have heard them before while playing something else!
I am sure they enjoy trade But the economic path of this aspect is what leads to inflation.
The social path of this aspect is what leads to endless discussion both in-game and in forums of what is OP as soon as it gets outside the affordable, and then how to nerf everything down to a couple of levels... which will kill the drive to explore the game further.
Those who have played other pirate games know that these are not uncharted waters Pirates are not traders
Pirates are disciples of Lady Luck! They need long term goals and long term gratifications... and maybe also a bit of envy from "havenots" in order to achieve the feeling of accomplishment from the game.

Not trading... but ... more inventory space ... and not in the process of leveling a pirate but at lvl 50 would be a step forward!

Trading on the other hand would make the game similar to those endless quests for knife/doll/dagger/pistol/cutlass upgrade for items that everyone trash away anyways, because those rewards have become worthless.
True as someone said... items do not come from nowhere... and we had to work hard for the Coltellos and such which we throw away as soon as we have made room in the quest book... because we do the quests none the less just to move on with the game. Now if the trade would have been implemented would those Coltellos be worth the work we added in them?
Because if it wouldn't then there is no reason to want trade, nor test it, or compromise the game for it.
I'd still be very careful what to wish for!
So on this one I still hope the devs have their own mind set, so neither of the player sides would have to take the blame for what went wrong

 

[Mharr]

Without trading, you can loot for 100 years and never get a weapon.

That doesn't strike me as being an ideal situation either.

 

[Dreadful]

Without trading, you can loot for 100 years and never get a weapon.

Nah, don't worry. Just go fishing for, like, 20 minutes and you'll pull a Lost Sword, 3 Silver Freeze and a few DB sack vests.