Discussion Revert the Copperhead Broadside Nerf - Patch v1.21.2

Do you want the Copperhead upgrade reverted?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 57 39.6%

  • Not fully reverted, but buffed.

    Votes: 22 15.3%

  • No.

    Votes: 65 45.1%
  • Total voters
    144
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Kate Goldwalker said:
I'm sorry but I disagree.

You do realize that the developers not only rely on what they see in the code in the first place, but the stats and information that was gathers by POTCO Players (human beings who are sources and their statements left there), as well as any other information that this forums has held from POTCO (again, human beings who put statements and left sources from POTCO playtime). discussions with former POTCO players, and let's not forget videos from those former players (which I'm sure probably some of your videos have been looked at when trying to figure out how some things worked if you've got any....

I think at this point, well it feels to me like this anyway... that you're upset with us (at least me) for trying to look at this whole thing logically with evidence from the past, including the wiki which you are a huge part of, instead of agreeing that this change needs to be reverted. And I'm sorry if I've ticked you off in anyway. I do think this has been a good discussion concerning the copperhead.

I'm going to part for the night wishing all here will have a good night/morning. I am going to take a break.
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I am not upset in anyway what so ever. Especially not at anyone who's taking part in a constructive discussion of a currently objective imbalance within the game.

The only things you've said that wasn't constructive is bringing up lore and information that is lore or TLOPO team exclusive. There is no room to discuss things that are not tangible to the community.

I apologies if you find any of my statements targeted or shutting down you in anyway. -Although I get passionate about a discussion, it doesn't mean I want to discourage ANYONE'S input in ANYWAY. ^_^
 
idk dude i thought the change was fine. I don't even SvS that much, but you didn't have to SvS very often to notice how oppressive a copperhead war sloop was. I think @Ned_Reddavis came to about the right conclusion, as he often does.
 
I have to agree with Charles on this one. With same damage potential between copper and other classes now, copper is rendered worse because the speed is severely left at a disadvantage. Although the armor is a bit stronger, its much easier to run away in a storm chaser than to absorb rounds as a copper
 
glad the select few that still SvS get their whiny demands read by the devs instead of the much larger population of us that use our ships to do loot/mat runs
 
Bone said:
I have to agree with Charles on this one. With same damage potential between copper and other classes now, copper is rendered worse because the speed is severely left at a disadvantage. Although the armor is a bit stronger, its much easier to run away in a storm chaser than to absorb rounds as a copper
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Exactly. Thank you. :)
 
Kris said:
So someone who doesn't like sailing...is all up in arms...about....sailing? :lol1:

Just needed something to complain about?
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It's his prerogative as a beta tester to offer his opinion on recent changes, even if you think that opinion is misguided. I have to be honest, Kris, it's really unprofessional and off-putting when a member of TLOPO's staff responds to feedback with ridicule and bad faith insinuations about OP's motives. I know this must sound rich coming from me, but you guys really need to start holding yourselves to a higher standard.
 
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Beggar said:
idk dude i thought the change was fine. I don't even SvS that much, but you didn't have to SvS very often to notice how oppressive a copperhead war sloop was. I think @Ned_Reddavis came to about the right conclusion, as he often does.
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Like I stated above, I am not disagreeing copperhead didn't need a nerf. - I am arguing that the currently nerf is vastly to much considering the loss in stats you lose/gain compared to the Lighting/Skull counterparts.

Copperhead: 80% more armor, 10% less speed, 15% [Limited to 1 explosive]

Skull & Bones: 65% more armor, 10% Turing, 50% Fury. [Limited to 12]

Storm Chaser: 20% Speed, 10% Turing, 45% Thunderbolt. [Limited to 12]
 
Bone said:
I have to agree with Charles on this one. With same damage potential between copper and other classes now, copper is rendered worse because the speed is severely left at a disadvantage. Although the armor is a bit stronger, its much easier to run away in a storm chaser than to absorb rounds as a copper
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In that case lower speed for all ships by 3 knots as it was in potco.
Speed is a separate issue that needs to be addressed.
Storms running away is because they can move way faster than they were even intended to.

EDIT: Would like to mention this discussion as a whole is an important one, and emotions should be left at the door upon entering. Thank you Charles for taking the time to voice your concerns. All of us should be willing to voice our concerns about the state of the game - as this games beta testers. Hopefully we can be respected for these decisions.
 
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Leon Hexmalley said:
In that case lower speed for all ships by 3 knots as it was in potco.
Speed is a separate issue that needs to be addressed.
Storms running away is because they can move way faster than they were even intended to.
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Why would we nerf everything across the board when we could simply adjust the nerf that was over done?
 
For people saying Copperhead is still good for its armor obviously don't remember how horrible its turn radius is. The whole point of Copperhead was if you maxed tacking and windcatcher and maxed explosive shot you could actually land broadsides on ships with other hulls and get easy cheap kills with nuts damage.


So if the damage is fixed now and you are trying to make it balanced with other hulls of the same type, and if the armor does not outweigh the loss in turning ability (which it doesn't) then the real thing this thread should be asking for is a re-balancing of the turning radius now that the insane damage is nerfed. In my opinion if it deals the same damage as say skull and bones but with slightly better armor then the turn radius difference should be like.... still less than the rest of the hulls but surely not default... So like 105%? Also speed should be 95% instead of 90%.
 
jasonsalvo said:
For people saying Copperhead is still good for its armor obviously don't remember how horrible its turn radius is. The whole point of Copperhead was if you maxed tacking and windcatcher and maxed explosive shot you could actually land broadsides on ships with other hulls and get easy cheap kills with nuts damage.


So if the damage is fixed now and you are trying to make it balanced with other hulls of the same type, and if the armor does not outweigh the loss in turning ability (which it doesn't) then the real thing this thread should be asking for is a re-balancing of the turning radius now that the insane damage is nerfed. In my opinion if it deals the same damage as say skull and bones but with slightly better armor then the turn radius difference should be like.... still less than the rest of the hulls but surely not default... So like 105%? Also speed should be 95% instead of 90%.
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That's exactly my point, the risk/reward is imbalanced. - I am not opposed to making it more maneuverability and armor for the loss of it's damage. However, after losing it's damage it unquestionably needs re-balancing.
 
Nate Dreadshot said:
Glad Charles is thinking about this kind of thing even if it's not something everyone agrees with is beside the point. It's good to have these kind of conversations, when constructive. But why are some people making it so personal and being rude, especially community leaders?

come on.
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I don't like to bring up any comments that may make it personal. - No matter how they present their opinions or what rank they have in the community. I will always choose to respect them and respond to them like any other. <3

I am warmed to see you willing to defend though, but please don't worry about me. <3
 
Not wanting to get in a fight here... just wanted to point out a few things that came to my mind...

Unless I've made a mistake, the math shows that new copperhead does an average of 1.79x higher damage than a plain broadside, compared to storm chaser's 1.90x and old copperhead's 2.65x. And when you do get an explosive with new copperhead, the damage output is 1.92x, which is essentially the same as storm chaser. In other words, with regards to damage output, new copper is weaker than storm chaser on average and on par at its best.

Second, the dynamics in svs and mat/loot runs are quite different. I absolutely agree that copper needed an adjustment like this for svs. But I can't help but feel that it really hurts for non-svs play types. In my opinion, having extra armor is useful for svs, but not so when playing against AI ships because of how easy it is to avoid damage from them. I grinded out my coppers for the damage output alone and I no longer see a reason to continue using them in non-svs play when my storm chasers are faster, turn better, and now even do more damage to boot. Maybe there are others who find armor more important for non-svs play than I do, which is fine... again, this is just my opinion...

A few other thoughts-
Why not just apply the 1-shot explosive cap to svs only?
Removing the 1-shot cap and reducing the explosive chance to, say, 10% would result in average damage output of 2.1x (compare to 2.65x old copper and 1.79x new copper). Enough to make it worth grinding mats for, but probably not enough to make it OP in svs.
 
This is all a very interesting debate I see and after reading this I would like to share some thoughts on the matter as well. First we are a small community and i think we should try our best to be as cooperative as possible with one another. With that established this is called a forum where people can talk about their opinions, Charles has that right, he can convey his concerns about a change in the game, infact most changes in any game warrant concern from some part of the games player base, take every fortnite vault, league of legends update, or overwatch player rework... if any of you are familiar with these games. And let me clarify I am not trying to debate with anyone. When he says he agrees with alot of the community I am sure a large portion of the community is concerned with a monumental change such as the rework with copperhead, but at the same time there hasn't been enough time for people to officially declare whether or not they like something.
The devs have worked hard no doubt to make this update happen and everyone wants to be appreciative so they are supporting the change. However; to take a census when very little time has actually passed for people to get used to the change isn't logical. We should let people over say a week play SvS and sail around with the change to get a better understanding of the change, and see the effects. But I can't remember when this forum turned into a info wars debate between one person and a community trying to flat out refute his comment. We can see that alot of people immediately say they like the change, but how many of them have actually gotten used to the change is probably very few. Its like getting a new iphone, when the new iphone comes out everyone is stoked and on board same with this update because people have thought copperhead is too OP, but no one has had the experience long enough to see if the new phone breaks or if there is a problem.
All I am saying is lets give the man his first amendment right and respect his opinion. And that we wait to see the affects over time.
 
Will Callecutter said:
Not wanting to get in a fight here... just wanted to point out a few things that came to my mind...

Unless I've made a mistake, the math shows that new copperhead does an average of 1.79x higher damage than a plain broadside, compared to storm chaser's 1.90x and old copperhead's 2.65x. And when you do get an explosive with new copperhead, the damage output is 1.92x, which is essentially the same as storm chaser. In other words, with regards to damage output, new copper is weaker than storm chaser on average and on par at its best.

Second, the dynamics in svs and mat/loot runs are quite different. I absolutely agree that copper needed an adjustment like this for svs. But I can't help but feel that it really hurts for non-svs play types. In my opinion, having extra armor is useful for svs, but not so when playing against AI ships because of how easy it is to avoid damage from them. I grinded out my coppers for the damage output alone and I no longer see a reason to continue using them in non-svs play when my storm chasers are faster, turn better, and now even do more damage to boot. Maybe there are others who find armor more important for non-svs play than I do, which is fine... again, this is just my opinion...

A few other thoughts-
Why not just apply the 1-shot explosive cap to svs only?
Removing the 1-shot cap and reducing the explosive chance to, say, 10% would result in average damage output of 2.1x (compare to 2.65x old copper and 1.79x new copper). Enough to make it worth grinding mats for, but probably not enough to make it OP in svs.
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I once again completely agree with this idea as well.

As you clearly pointed out was I see though, it basally does the same damage with less stats now. Which is unreasonable for how hard you [and many others] had to grind for it.
Thank you for you testing and input. <3
 
Ned O'Morgan said:
This is all a very interesting debate I see and after reading this I would like to share some thoughts on the matter as well. First we are a small community and i think we should try our best to be as cooperative as possible with one another. With that established this is called a forum where people can talk about their opinions, Charles has that right, he can convey his concerns about a change in the game, infact most changes in any game warrant concern from some part of the games player base, take every fortnite vault, league of legends update, or overwatch player rework... if any of you are familiar with these games. And let me clarify I am not trying to debate with anyone. When he says he agrees with alot of the community I am sure a large portion of the community is concerned with a monumental change such as the rework with copperhead, but at the same time there hasn't been enough time for people to officially declare whether or not they like something.
The devs have worked hard no doubt to make this update happen and everyone wants to be appreciative so they are supporting the change. However; to take a census when very little time has actually passed for people to get used to the change isn't logical. We should let people over say a week play SvS and sail around with the change to get a better understanding of the change, and see the effects. But I can't remember when this forum turned into a info wars debate between one person and a community trying to flat out refute his comment. We can see that alot of people immediately say they like the change, but how many of them have actually gotten used to the change is probably very few. Its like getting a new iphone, when the new iphone comes out everyone is stoked and on board same with this update because people have thought copperhead is too OP, but no one has had the experience long enough to see if the new phone breaks or if there is a problem.
All I am saying is lets give the man his first amendment right and respect his opinion. And that we wait to see the affects over time.
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Thank you once again for defending my right to voice. - However, the forums mods should be handling that and I touched you felt need to point it out. :) Thank you.

In terms of your points for the discussion at hand, I would agree with it the more testing and time with the current changes the better. However, that also goes for the Non-SvS players as we vastly out number the SvS players [I believe] if not have a comparable population.
 
Charles Warmonk said:
I am not upset in anyway what so ever. Especially not at anyone who's taking part in a constructive discussion of a currently objective imbalance within the game.

The only things you've said that wasn't constructive is bringing up lore and information that is lore or TLOPO team exclusive. There is no room to discuss things that are not tangible to the community.

I apologies if you find any of my statements targeted or shutting down you in anyway. -Although I get passionate about a discussion, it doesn't mean I want to discourage ANYONE'S input in ANYWAY. ^_^
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I'm sorry, Charles, I've looked back through all my statements on here and I have yet to see anything about lore. I'm very confused. Are you thinking of my bringing up how our ships were before customization was as being lore somehow?

Would like to note it's extremely early morning here and I'm just woke because I cannot breathe properly due to being sick... so I could be overlooking something.
 
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