Discussion Revert the Copperhead Broadside Nerf - Patch v1.21.2

[Roger-Daniel]

Here is a question... Can anyone actually remember how many explosives were shot in POTCO with a fully upgraded copperhead 1. after the customization were released and 2. just before POTCO closed? The reason I'm asking about both those two times is because we all know very well how buggy and messed up/broken a lot things were in POTCO at the close (which was likely because the developers were no longer fixing the bugs at that time as they had in the past).

I mean, I'm quite interested if anyone knows for sure. Has evidence of this. It would help the developers and the community. However, I still stand by my opinion that this was a good change BECAUSE there is no longer an unfair advantage to someone who shoots explosive broadsides in SvS.

here is a video of a copperhead mat run in potco. Besides the obvious like Ship speed being 3 knots lower in potco vs tlopo, i do not think i saw the high damage number of an explosive appear more than once per broadside. correct me if i am wrong.

Start watching at 5:45, there's a broadside that rips the En Garde. No way that has a single explosive.
EDIT: By my count there's 3, maybe 4.

Yes I think the same may have happened here at 2:34

It seems relatively evident that copperheads could shoot more than one explosive in potco but i'm not sure why we're even talking about this since it's unclear whether TLOPO staff were even trying make copperhead like how it was in potco or to balance copperhead in tlopo by nerfing it from how disney had it.
Even before the nerf I was not much of a copperhead fan so regardless of how it turns out im glad it doesn't affect me too much.

I do however think that the nerf was too much but agree that there should definitely be something done about it svs-wise

 

[Truecrash]

it's unclear whether TLOPO staff were even trying make copperhead like how it was in potco or to balance copperhead in tlopo by nerfing it from how disney had it.

A mix of both. It shot more rounds per broadside in POTCO, but did significantly less damage per explosive than TLOPO, as seen in the video. Our change was seen as a nice middle-ground that wouldn't impact other aspects of the game that use explosive round, such as cannons. As it is now, copperhead in TLOPO does roughly equivalent, though still slightly more, than POTCO copperhead in terms of damage.

It's also worth pointing out, copperhead in TLOPO moves 3 knots faster than in POTCO. In other words, it's still stronger in every way compared to the original.

 

[Roger-Daniel]

A mix of both. It shot more rounds per broadside in POTCO, but did significantly less damage per explosive than TLOPO, as seen in the video. Our change was seen as a nice middle-ground that wouldn't impact other aspects of the game that use explosive round, such as cannons. As it is now, copperhead in TLOPO does roughly equivalent, though still slightly more, than POTCO copperhead in terms of damage.

Is 11,475 per explosive considered significantly less damage than TLOPO? I dont roll with copperheads much in tlopo so I don't know if that POTCO number is less than what the average number explosives do in TLOPO. Were damage numbers broken in POTCO or is that just a TLOPO thing?

 

[Beastman]

This nerf is not very clear to players, so I will enlighten you on how HEAVILY the NERF this upgrade from being the STRONGEST..... to weaker than Firebrand upgrade.
View attachment 115838
How they "limited" the explosive... was actually lowering the CHANGES of it as well. Normally, [Let's say on a War Galleon] You have 12 individual cannons on one broadside. This means each cannon used to have a 15% chance to shoot a explosive shot. You could get all 12 explosives..... or 0.

Currently, TLOPO's idea of nerfing this is to REMOVE ALL changes from the other 11 cannons [In this case of the War Galleon] and only give 1 cannon a 15% chance to shoot an explosive. This already RIDICULOUSLY low chance to shoot an explosive as become not even WORTH the low [15% at MAX] to upgrade.

Not only is the upgrade now the WORST in the game.... it cost players the MOST TIME and MOST MATERIALS to upgrade.

I think I speak for the entirely community on this one....Revert the change for the copperhead ship or at the VERY LEAST increase it so it is not a waste of resources.

every single shot out of a copperhead should be an explosive, and it should insta sink everything from a light sloop to a SOTL

 

[Floms]

Quick math to figure it out:

The video shows 11,475 with an open fire, so multiply by 2/3 to get the damage at base, or 7650. Hull isn't broken (first round to hit) so there shouldn't be any extra damage there. The most this shot could have done would have been with explosives on 5 + an iron priming ram = 7, barrage 5, and broadside guns on 5.
Running a similar test in TLOPO, I got this:

7695 without an open fire, on a hull that was about one third broken. Rear hull isn't damaged so it did hit the side. I do have an iron priming ram, and I made sure to retrain all my skills to max them. I know it isn't an En Garde, but it is (or should be?) a weaker ship.

If there are any mistakes feel free to correct. But as far as I can tell, the 1 explosive cap makes TLOPO copperheads weaker than POTCO ones from shear damage dealt per average broadside.

 

[Charles Warmonk]

Ahoy,

I wanted to come back to this thread this morning with an open mind and some extra play testing under my belt to theorize or deny your current debacle, @Charles Warmonk. Before I start though...





No. Due to how Disney originally coded POTCO, to my knowledge there is no way that we can separate ground between SvE and SvS. Believe me, if we were able to, this would NOT have tweaked SvE, and instead would've been a pure change to SvS. It's simply not possible, and how it was tweaked is not the way the crew would have taken it if it were possible to split the realms of ship combat.

However, after testing functionality on several additional hours of playtime (in SvE, mind you. Not SvS), I feel that you are somewhat right in saying it needs a tweak, however, I will continue denying the possibility of adding more Explosive back until the day I die. Instead, reading back through some of the comments, it originally took me a second to understand what you were referring to in regards to a worse turn-rate. However, compared to Skull and Bones, and Storm Chaser, even with a base turn rate the ship feels sluggish combined with the dropped 10% of speed.

My proposal and concept would be to tune the Turning Speed up by 5%, and upping the ship's actual speed by 5%. Copperheads need to keep that weighty feel to them, but I do think now that we've lightened their load, that upping the movement capabilities even marginally could assist in keeping the ship relevant in both realms of play.

Would like to hear opinions back on this comment.

5% Tweeks are simply to small to confiscate for the massive loss in damage.

However, happy to see you coming in the right direction now.

 

[Charles Warmonk]

I can understand my guys argument. But for once the SvS community had been heard and we barely asked for much since I began playing the game back in mid 2017 or 2016 (when it was barely catching back with the fan base) and it took the SvS community until these past few months to finally get something done for us. The overall TLOPO player does more than sink ships, but loot in Tormenta or what not. What did the developers do for all them? They added new weapons, new locations through current ones, new enemies, basically things that the overall virtual population wanted. After months and months and months of our small SvS community nearly begging for our change, IT HAPPENED. So we happy where we at and that's about it. We had a few changes done and we waited nearly 2 years for them, so why not just let it go? Just be happy that the developers are trying to make everything as similar as possible as the original game and that they're trying to be equal with all sides of the spectrum of the fan/player base. You posted this as a post to get peoples opinion, so you should expect that people will support and also disagree. Cant get mad about that bud. This is the first time I ever posted on a wiki page since like 2011 (in POTCO) so it feels good to back up my fellow SvS community. They know who I am and know that I ain't about negativity or anything thatll prompt arguing. It's a game, dea with it and enjoy it.

Get yourself 8 gunners and enjoy the game with not just yourself but with others. Make me friends. A simple nerf shouldnt drive you or others become crazy. Other than that later yall see some of you in SvS
- Raze Daze GM of SvS Originals

Simply putting the argument that it's closer to the originals game and to just "Deal with it." Is the fastest way to shut down a debate and us testers.

Also, this is a patch. Not a bug fix to make like the original game. Copperhead always used to have a chance to shoot more or many, or NO explosives and was never capped.

I do want the SvS community heard and agree with A PATCH, just not THIS MUCH of a patch.

That's why this thread was made for ALL sides to speak, we all pur testers (And some devs apparently) we all have a voice.

 

[Charles Warmonk]

my only problem is a entire max tier hull has become un-useable due to its turn radius and speed making its defense not matter. Would like to see some more balance changes to it to make it on par now that its damage is equal. The gimmick of the hull was that it does huge damage but can't hardly move. Now its stuck with equivalent damage and can't hardly move. If its damage is near or close to other hulls then it shouldn't be more gimped than other hulls.

Exactly my point.
Imbalance cost/reward.

 

[Charles Warmonk]

I don’t do much SvS and I see this as a fairly complex issue but I do have strong opinions about sailing and I’m going to chime in on this: I favor rolling back the nerf. I feel that the sailing upgrades were done incredibly well by Disney and that they are an original part of this game that should be preserved. I understand that Copperheads were op on broadsides but they are also slugs in the water, they did have balance. While it’s possible that the balance was not working well for SvS I would prefer that the Copperhead revert and the SvS balance be fixed with new additions to the game.

I don't mind a few tweaks instead, but you have a point about it being originally in the game. If they are trying to just maintain balance by lore, this would be correct. - However, I much rather see a rebalance (Buff) currently. SvS deserve patches for thier community.

 

[Roger-Daniel]

every single shot out of a copperhead should be an explosive, and it should insta sink everything from a light sloop to a SOTL

I think you're looking for this thread https://piratesforums.co/threads/copperhead-level-7-super.28043/

 

[Truecrash]

Is 11,475 per explosive considered significantly less damage than TLOPO?

Yes, that shot was boosted with open fire, ours would do more under the same circumstances.

The video shows 11,475 with an open fire, so multiply by 2/3 to get the damage at base, or 7650.

Running a similar test in TLOPO, I got this:
7695 without an open fire, on a hull that was about one third broken.

In your example, Open Fire would boost the damage of a TLOPO explosive shot higher than a POTCO explosive shot by a fair bit, as shown by our base damage being higher.

I would suggest re-reading my post above, where I mentioned that copperhead on TLOPO is also 3 knots faster, pushing it ahead of the POTCO copperhead in terms of strength. Remember, we don't measure things based on raw damage alone, as stated in a post I made further above -- there is a lot that goes into determining balance.

 

[Truecrash]

I don't mind a few tweaks instead, but you have a point about it being originally in the game. If they are trying to just maintain balance by lore, this would be correct. - However, I much rather see a rebalance (Buff) currently. SvS deserve patches for thier community.

Please refer to my post above regarding this, specifically:

Second, I'd like to assure everyone that we aren't done with the changes! Right now, we're waiting for everyone to adjust and the meta of SvE and SvS to change a little more before we decide what to do next. So, we won't be reverting this change, but instead pressing forward and striving to make every option appealing to players, without one ship upgrade completely overshadowing the rest as copperhead did.

 

[Will Callecutter]

Second, I'd like to assure everyone that we aren't done with the changes! Right now, we're waiting for everyone to adjust and the meta of SvE and SvS to change a little more before we decide what to do next. So, we won't be reverting this change, but instead pressing forward and striving to make every option appealing to players, without one ship upgrade completely overshadowing the rest as copperhead did.

Finally, it's definitely still worthwhile to purchase a copperhead upgrade. Even post-nerf, the ship is still incredibly strong in solo runs, and not to be underestimated! Don't count it out just yet, Pirates!

Hopefully this sheds some light on the changes, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you pirates have if not.

I have a few questions...

I'm sure there were discussions about reducing the probability of getting an explosive from 15% to some lower percentage. What went behind the decision to not do that and instead implement a 1-shot cap?

I'm also curious how you view new copper's place in SvE. It seems the only advantage it offers over storm chaser is extra armor, and that's not something I've ever found to matter much in SvE. I'm just not seeing a good reason to launch my coppers over my storm chasers any more.

Thanks for taking the time to chime in here.

 

[Eric Sailcutter]

I don't mind a few tweaks instead, but you have a point about it being originally in the game. If they are trying to just maintain balance by lore, this would be correct. - However, I much rather see a rebalance (Buff) currently. SvS deserve patches for thier community.

You will see me advocate for keeping as much of the original game as possible and for improvements to be new things that are isolated as much as possible from the original game stuff. It goes to this being a recreation of potco.

 

[Truecrash]

I have a few questions...

I'm sure there were discussions about reducing the probability of getting an explosive from 15% to some lower percentage. What went behind the decision to not do that and instead implement a 1-shot cap?

I'm also curious how you view new copper's place in SvE. It seems the only advantage it offers over storm chaser is extra armor, and that's not something I've ever found to matter much in SvE. I'm just not seeing a good reason to launch my coppers over my storm chasers any more.

Thanks for taking the time to chime in here.

In the end both accomplish the same goal, and this made more sense to implement when looking at the full picture.

In regards to the new copper's place in SvE, the team found through extensive testing that we can still easily take down even the toughest hunters while going solo. When taking into account crew sizes and other players helping in the large hunter clusters, the copperhead is easily on par with other upgrades. So, in the end, I'd say now it's mostly personal choice on if you want to take out your copper or storm chaser, rather than being forced to take out the copper because it's strictly better.

Anytime, it's great to be able to converse with the community and get feedback on changes!

 

[Bartholomew Bladespinner]

 

[Topper]

lot of reading. but im glad I caught this before I bought a copperhead. sounds like it is ruined. Charles warmonks argument makes sense. I sure did hate those copperheads in svs! that's why u don't get in broadside range! unless the copperhead is made great again just the way it was there is absolutely no reason to get it. it can barely move and it costs much more than any ship.

 

[John Macbatten]

lot of reading. but im glad I caught this before I bought a copperhead. sounds like it is ruined. Charles warmonks argument makes sense. I sure did hate those copperheads in svs! that's why u don't get in broadside range! unless the copperhead is made great again just the way it was there is absolutely no reason to get it. it can barely move and it costs much more than any ship.

#MCHGA

 

[Arr]

Why not just ban copperheads in svs and rollback the change? There could be a vote on the main tlopo website to see if players don't want the copperhead in svs.

 

[Warbellows]

Why did your stance on copperheads change?