Discussion Revert the Copperhead Broadside Nerf - Patch v1.21.2

Do you want the Copperhead upgrade reverted?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 57 39.6%
  • Not fully reverted, but buffed.

    Votes: 22 15.3%
  • No.

    Votes: 65 45.1%

  • Total voters
    144
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I'm sorry, Charles, I've looked back through all my statements on here and I have yet to see anything about lore. I'm very confused. Are you thinking of my bringing up how our ships were before customization was as being lore somehow?

Would like to note it's extremely early morning here and I'm just woke because I cannot breathe properly due to being sick... so I could be overlooking something.
Let's start from the beginning, as both of us should be on the same track.

1. You said "if you notice it says 'Explosive Chance', meaning that is the chance that an explosive will be fired."

This is what I meant by you saying because it says an, it should be 1 explosive. My argument to this statement was that it as AN for every type of ammo. So by your logic, all ship upgrades should shoot a single [1] special ammo.

2. You stated "And I'm sorry, but that also means to get the ships coding to work correctly, as it was back in POTCO, which includes the ship upgrades that have been faulty in TLOPO for quite a while."

I agree, they should fix all bugs with ships and make them as intended by POTCO. THEN re-balance them as needed afterwords. However, this is where I thought you are referring to lore? As nothing in the files [At least not publicly] says explosives was designed to only shoot one.

If you need ME to explain past statements, please bring them up. I don't want this to be "But you said..."

It's a open floor discussion, and I want everyone's points to be clear and fairly measured and understood. <3
 
I just think now that it does equal or less damage to other hulls its turn speed and movement speed should be looked at. Considering the damage output is essentially the same as other hulls now but the speed and turn radius is atrocious. Means people will never use it anymore ergo its not viable anymore.
 
I just think now that it does equal or less damage to other hulls its turn speed and movement speed should be looked at. Considering the damage output is essentially the same as other hulls now but the speed and turn radius is atrocious. Means people will never use it anymore ergo its not viable anymore.
Exactly, risk/reward is now unreasonable for the cost.
Simply over nerfed is all.
 
Exactly, risk/reward is now unreasonable for the cost.
Simply over nerfed is all.
the nerf to damage is fair enough all things considered... if there is a equalization of its other stats when doing so. balancing you wanna make it balanced, before it was overpowered now its underpowered because no stats except for its damage output were considered when rolling the update, but im sure it can be worked on when people notice no copperheads are successful in SvS anymore.

with just a slightly improved turn and speed radius on it, it can be balanced again, it will still be the bulkier less maneuverable hull, it just wont be un-usable.
 
So someone who doesn't like sailing...is all up in arms...about....sailing? :lol1:

Just needed something to complain about?

This is like me saying "why are you posting on this thread if you don't like the change?"

all this seems like is an attempt to dismiss proper constructive criticism to a feature, and to include a pointless "Gotcha."

This isn't the least bit constructive, what reason was there to post this?
 
It's his prerogative as a beta tester to offer his opinion on recent changes, even if you think that opinion is misguided. I have to be honest, Kris, it's really unprofessional and off-putting when a member of TLOPO's staff responds to feedback with ridicule and bad faith insinuations about OP's motives. I know this must sound rich coming from me, but you guys really need to start holding yourselves to a higher standard.
I was not trying to be mean.. but as you saw, there was an "lol.. which should have showed that the meaning was not in ill. I guess text doesn't show what was meant.. I could have worded it better. sorry @Charles Warmonk.
 
Ahoy,

I wanted to come back to this thread this morning with an open mind and some extra play testing under my belt to theorize or deny your current debacle, @Charles Warmonk. Before I start though...

Why not just apply the 1-shot explosive cap to svs only?
I haven't read the whole discussion but what I will say is if SvS players were the only players to complain, why not nerf copperhead in SvS alone?
I don't believe that is possible in TLOPO coding. - However, I could be wrong.

No. Due to how Disney originally coded POTCO, to my knowledge there is no way that we can separate ground between SvE and SvS. Believe me, if we were able to, this would NOT have tweaked SvE, and instead would've been a pure change to SvS. It's simply not possible, and how it was tweaked is not the way the crew would have taken it if it were possible to split the realms of ship combat.

However, after testing functionality on several additional hours of playtime (in SvE, mind you. Not SvS), I feel that you are somewhat right in saying it needs a tweak, however, I will continue denying the possibility of adding more Explosive back until the day I die. Instead, reading back through some of the comments, it originally took me a second to understand what you were referring to in regards to a worse turn-rate. However, compared to Skull and Bones, and Storm Chaser, even with a base turn rate the ship feels sluggish combined with the dropped 10% of speed.

My proposal and concept would be to tune the Turning Speed up by 5%, and upping the ship's actual speed by 5%. Copperheads need to keep that weighty feel to them, but I do think now that we've lightened their load, that upping the movement capabilities even marginally could assist in keeping the ship relevant in both realms of play.

Would like to hear opinions back on this comment.
 
I can understand my guys argument. But for once the SvS community had been heard and we barely asked for much since I began playing the game back in mid 2017 or 2016 (when it was barely catching back with the fan base) and it took the SvS community until these past few months to finally get something done for us. The overall TLOPO player does more than sink ships, but loot in Tormenta or what not. What did the developers do for all them? They added new weapons, new locations through current ones, new enemies, basically things that the overall virtual population wanted. After months and months and months of our small SvS community nearly begging for our change, IT HAPPENED. So we happy where we at and that's about it. We had a few changes done and we waited nearly 2 years for them, so why not just let it go? Just be happy that the developers are trying to make everything as similar as possible as the original game and that they're trying to be equal with all sides of the spectrum of the fan/player base. You posted this as a post to get peoples opinion, so you should expect that people will support and also disagree. Cant get mad about that bud. This is the first time I ever posted on a wiki page since like 2011 (in POTCO) so it feels good to back up my fellow SvS community. They know who I am and know that I ain't about negativity or anything thatll prompt arguing. It's a game, dea with it and enjoy it.

Get yourself 8 gunners and enjoy the game with not just yourself but with others. Make me friends. A simple nerf shouldnt drive you or others become crazy. Other than that later yall see some of you in SvS
- Raze Daze GM of SvS Originals
 
my only problem is a entire max tier hull has become un-useable due to its turn radius and speed making its defense not matter. Would like to see some more balance changes to it to make it on par now that its damage is equal. The gimmick of the hull was that it does huge damage but can't hardly move. Now its stuck with equivalent damage and can't hardly move. If its damage is near or close to other hulls then it shouldn't be more gimped than other hulls. 🥺
 
I don’t do much SvS and I see this as a fairly complex issue but I do have strong opinions about sailing and I’m going to chime in on this: I favor rolling back the nerf. I feel that the sailing upgrades were done incredibly well by Disney and that they are an original part of this game that should be preserved. I understand that Copperheads were op on broadsides but they are also slugs in the water, they did have balance. While it’s possible that the balance was not working well for SvS I would prefer that the Copperhead revert and the SvS balance be fixed with new additions to the game.
 
Ahoy, pirates! Dev behind the changes to SvS and copperhead here.

I've been keeping a close eye on the thread, and I see a lot of interesting ideas! Just wanted to thank everyone for sharing their opinions about the tweaks, it goes a long way into balancing the game. With that being said, there's a few things to consider here...

First off, it's worth noting that not everyone uses the forums. We receive feedback about these changes from numerous places such as the new feedback system on the site as well as in-game feedback, so while it may seem like we're not doing what everyone wants at times, please be assured that we are listening to as many people as we can, and only making changes once we've seen a majority of the community chime in.

In addition to the above, we also spend an absurd amount of time reviewing old footage of POTCO gameplay, reading and analyzing the wiki, and going over old (and new!) posts on the forums. As an example of this, I've seen members of the crew re-visit old posts from as far back as 2009 to verify the text on skills, or spend hours watching old videos to ensure we're as close to humanely possible on certain recreations of features! Heck, I've seen a few people from staff go over the same hour-long video multiple times to ensure nothing of importance was missed. So, please be assured that we do care about your voices as players -- both old and new!

There's already been some nice points made regarding the damage being tweaked, so I won't be going further into this. Instead, I'd like to comment on how and why this change was made.

First, I'd like to address that it's important to remember that it's not just the explosive shot by itself being taken into account, but also round shots and gunners on the ship, as well as the ships actual stats. We even take things into account such as SvE enemies, the average level of a pirate crew, and popular SvS/SvE strategies! There's a lot of information that goes into making a balance change, so while something may seem obvious to you as a player that makes you think "Doh, why don't the devs just do this?!", I assure you that there's always more to consider, and not all of it is always obvious. In the case of copperhead, it was simply far too powerful, to the point that there was nearly no reason to go for anything else.

Second, I'd like to assure everyone that we aren't done with the changes! Right now, we're waiting for everyone to adjust and the meta of SvE and SvS to change a little more before we decide what to do next. So, we won't be reverting this change, but instead pressing forward and striving to make every option appealing to players, without one ship upgrade completely overshadowing the rest as copperhead did.

Finally, it's definitely still worthwhile to purchase a copperhead upgrade. Even post-nerf, the ship is still incredibly strong in solo runs, and not to be underestimated! Don't count it out just yet, Pirates!

Hopefully this sheds some light on the changes, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you pirates have if not.
 
Posting anonymously. I wanted to share some thoughts but don't really care to have a name attached to my post in this particular instance.

For context, I used to be an active (and reasonably competitive) SvS player, and I have always enjoyed sailing alone, I find there's something quite therapeutic to it. With the latest update I have essentially stopped sailing all together.

I've been sitting on this topic and thinking about it for quite a while, and debated posting myself, but now that it's being discussed I figured I would anonymously share my thoughts.

I'll start with my experience in SvS. As someone who enjoyed sailing copperheads in SvS, it really is a shame to see the copper nerfed. While I do understand some people thought it was necessary, I don't really share that opinion. IMO, dodging broadsides was something of an art that few were any good at, and it feels like that's been completely taken away. Using your abilities, you could easily dodge broadsides, and take cover was essentially a way to prevent one hit sinking if a broadside was accurately fired at you. I've tried partaking in SvS once since the update was released and frankly just didn't have a good time. It felt like it was simpler to just sit next to an opponent's ship and rely on having a bigger crew than them to sink them. Even before the copper update, the ships that you were never able to sink were always the skull sloops with a full, competent crew, that never stayed put and were always somewhere where you couldn't broadside them (ex: behind). The only time copper broadsides ever really one hit sink was if you sat next to one, and didn't use your take cover, or were running away and got locked on at a ridiculous distance. I feel like if you find yourself in the first situation, then you probably need to re-evaluate why you were in that position to begin with. With the second, I do agree something has to change, but I don't think nerfing coppers is the way to do it. I say this as someone that hates people that run, I would prefer to sink and have a fight than just run. But something does need to change for players that do enjoy racking up long kill streaks.

As far as PvE sailing, I really do miss the copperhead the way it was even more. Sailing a copper for mat runs just simply isn't viable anymore, it's faster to just use a storm chaser or a skull and bones. Players boarding public ships are attracted to "30/30 and 7/12" like a mosquito to a black light. With the new loot update this may change, but as someone that has always sailed copperheads for mat runs, it is incredibly difficult to find a crew to sail with you if you aren't sailing a fortune hunter. Finding guildmates is not always easy or possible, and as far as I know, the lookout does not yet work. Some of us just enjoy going at it alone. With that said, you can't really sail copperheads alone anymore, and I really do regret that. It takes too long, and does too little damage if your one explosive misses for any reason (some of which may not be the players fault), you may as well be shooting a water gun at the NPC's.

Copperheads are supposed to be high risk, high reward, and in the current state it doesn't seem worth it. If the initial game was meant to be 15% explosive chance, then so be it. Sometimes that means water gun broadsides with no explosives, and sometimes that should mean a lot of damage. I'm waiting to change all my ships around to see if anything will change first, but I'm going to be forced to abandon copperheads if the status quo remains. I just don't see copperhead as a viable ship for anything anymore.

With all that said, I would like to make an alternate suggestion: limit the range of broadsides that have locked onto a target. In SvS, most of the problems and complaints I have had (and heard of from people that do svs more than I do) with copperheads have always been because of the absurd range you can get on people running, and being instant sunk from behind as a result of it. Limiting the range of broadsides in ALL scenarios, such as when you are firing at an empty ocean, could be a viable solution to all this. This wouldn't change the core mechanics of explosive percentage, but does mean that SvS ships cannot be one hit sunk unless they are sitting in a silly position.

As a closer, I just want to re-iterate that these are my thoughts and my thoughts alone. I'm normally pretty open to changes made, but this one hit really close to home. I feel like just putting information & opinions out there can't do any harm, so I hope that this will be read and thought about.
 
2. You stated "And I'm sorry, but that also means to get the ships coding to work correctly, as it was back in POTCO, which includes the ship upgrades that have been faulty in TLOPO for quite a while."

I agree, they should fix all bugs with ships and make them as intended by POTCO. THEN re-balance them as needed afterwords. However, this is where I thought you are referring to lore? As nothing in the files [At least not publicly] says explosives was designed to only shoot one.

The coding and how it was suppose to work is not lore. My definition of lore is how the story of how the game unfolds, the character backgrounds, the history of the 'world' in the game, not how the game mechanics/code should/did/do work.

What I meant there is that TLOPO is doing their best to get the game back to how it was in POTCO and fix any coding issues that there may be. Was this change how the ship upgrade was suppose to work? I'm honestly not sure, that is why I asked for someone to provide any videos of how the copperhead worked in POTCO with the highest level of that upgrade. That to me would be the perfect reference point for the developers to go on with any changes that need to be made with this upgrade. And I hope that they can find those reference points for the other ship upgrades as well.
 
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here is a video of a copperhead mat run in potco. Besides the obvious like Ship speed being 3 knots lower in potco vs tlopo, i do not think i saw the high damage number of an explosive appear more than once per broadside. correct me if i am wrong.
Start watching at 5:45, there's a broadside that rips the En Garde. No way that has a single explosive.
EDIT: By my count there's 3, maybe 4.
 
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